Episode 12: Sean McCallum Interview

November 13, 2021

The Writers Triangle

00:00 / 00:45:11

Hello Cinnabar Moths or any other kind of moth you’d like to be. Welcome to The Writers Triangle, Cinnabar Moth’s podcast about all things publishing and books. Today we are here with Sean, author of the Recalcitrant Stuff of Life, which is coming out on October 15 2021. Sean How you doing, today?

Doing well Rasta. What about yourself?

I’m doing pretty well. Thank you for coming on. It’s a pleasure to have you.

Yeah, man. thrilled, thrilled to be here. Thanks for having me on.

And so let’s jump right into it. Are you feeling excited about the release of the recal – the recalcitrant stuff of life?

Yeah, I am. It’s funny. It’s, I came up with a title. And I have a really hard time saying that word recalcitrant. But yeah, it’s, you know, my first novel being published. And definitely pretty excited, you know, little, little nerve wracking as we put the finishing touches on the final edits, and we’re about seven weeks out. But yeah, I think I think we’re in a good spot. Not a lot of people I know have read it only very select few have sort of given advanced sort of first edition readings to but they’ve enjoyed it. So there’s a whole bunch of people out there that, to be honest, most of my friends have really no idea that I was writing anything. So I’m pretty excited to get it into their hands and, and get their feedback. So yeah, we’re pretty excited up here.

Oh, so you only showed with a few people that didn’t even show that you’re writing with most of the people that you know.

Yeah, that’s, uh, you know, it’s, I know, you’re, you’re writing yourself Rest up. But I’ve always felt, I don’t know, I’ve always felt like, if I’m telling people that I’m writing, I’m probably not doing a lot of writing. That’s just one of those things. It’s just one of those things I always just did. On my own, it didn’t really like to talk about it all that much. Going back, my goodness, probably 13 years ago, I had written a manuscript. And thought it was pretty good. I landed a pretty high profile agent up here in Canada, where I live. And we came really close to getting it published. And I felt pretty confident was going to be published with one of the big publishers up here in Canada. So of course, I started talking about it with people. And it’s like, it’s like that pitcher throwing a no hitter, you’re not supposed to talk about it. So, you know, the, the plan sort of fell through, it never happened. And I was just like, I’m never talking about my writing again, until, like, definitively have something that I know is going to be published. So yeah, so I don’t talk about it really, with with anyone. So I’ve got young kids, they’re 10 and eight, full time job as most aspiring writers have. So you sort of have to pick your spots an hour here and an hour there to get the writing in. So yeah, most people I know, had no idea I was I was working on this, this manuscript. So it came as a bit of a pleasant shock to them all. When I, you know, we came out and said that it was going to be coming out in October. So yeah, we’re excited. Definitely, definitely excited to get it into everybody’s hands.

I think that’s great. And you mentioned that you have kids as well as a full time job. So yeah, imagine that takes up quite a bit of time. And so with writing the recalcitrant stuff of life, how long ago did you first start writing it?

Oh, boy, it’s been a bit of an odyssey, um, I started, had the idea for this book, going back to, you know, in about 2008, which was right about the time that that first manuscript was getting rejected. So but I, you know, my agent at the time gave me some great advice, she said, you know, we gave it a good run with this, my advice is put it back in the drawer, and get to work on the next one, which is, again, easy, easy to say. So easy to do. But so I had this idea for a book that was going to be set in Peru. So in 2008, I went down there, and did some Gonzo style journalistic research. I’m traveling into the jungles, spending some time with a shaman wound up back in Lima, Peru, where I would meet the woman that would eventually become my wife down there. So it really took it took an interesting turn in the writing of this novel, but I yeah, really got to work on it back in 2008. So it was a it was a long process. You know, that I had to try to fit in with everything else that was going on in my life, which of course included getting married and having kids and holding down a full time job and you know, buying a house and all the rest of it. So but so just just like all, all things just sort of tried to chip away as we went and finished it more or less in early 2020 and got it largely complete.

So for you that that’s quite the journey than going from being single, single and then going on a journey to a different country, and planning someone that you love, and then getting married, all all writing the book.

Yeah, that’s right. A lot going on. Definitely. But it’s interesting, you know, you mentioned that, when I started writing it, I was a completely different person than I am now. No, No wife, no kids, probably very immature, I’m probably still pretty immature to be honest. I’m able to hold down a job and raise kids, although my wife does the vast majority of the raising of our children. But yeah, it’s, uh, but I think it all works. It all worked out in the novel. So I think I think we’re in good place here.

That’s really great to hear that you’re feeling good about yourself, you’re feeling confident? That’s always nice to hear. And so it sounds like it took about was, what would that be? 12 years for you to have it completely done. And then we’re going to to it near the end of 2021. So about 13 years to publication? And so what was the process? Like for you? Was it a painful process? Was it? How was it for you?

Do you mean, the writing process or the getting published process?

I guess, let’s start with the writing process, then we can talk about the publishing process later.

Sure, um, the writing process. I mean, I don’t know about painful times, it’s, it feels like it’s, it’s like a, you know, like, like, you’re Sisyphus, pushing the rock up the mountain. Sometimes it just feels like you’re never going to be done with it, especially when you’ve got so many other things going on in your life. But I remember having a first draft that I thought was pretty good. And I gave it to a trusted reader. And they’re just like, No, it needs, it needs more, there’s just not enough here. It’s always a blow to the ego, right? Because I mean, everything you write, you think is the greatest thing in the world. And then we get a dose of reality, like, Oh, that hurt, a kick in the gut. Um, but that individual was right. So you know, went back to work. And I remember struggling to try to find time when I had when our kids were really young. And I’ve got another writer, friend of mine, guy by the name of Jeff Cole, great science fiction writer. He and he’s similar situation, you know, got a really good job. He’s got three kids. I said to him one time, we’re having a couple of drinks. I’m like, Jeff, where do you find time to write emails, honestly, try to do 20 minutes in the morning, on my way into into into work like on the train, and then I do 20 minutes, coming home from work, he goes, if you can, if you can find time to write just 20 minutes at a time, it’ll sort of start to snowball from there, you just you gotta keep the fingers moving, keep the juices flowing. And that really, you know, something as simple as that I found just really motivated me to to get back into it, it’s like, it doesn’t take much 20 minutes here, 20 minutes there, and then it starts to go. So that is really, after that first draft that was really got me back. Writing again, that to try to really improve the manuscript and get it to a point where I felt confident enough to get it into some other people’s hands and see if there might be an opportunity to get it published. So yeah, the writing. It was it was a tough grind. I think that the payoff, and then the publishing aspects. Um, you know, I, it’s interesting. So I had this agent, and I got it into her hands. And she just said, Honestly, I like it, but I don’t think I can sell it. So again, another another kick to the gut. And it’s just like, Oh, my goodness. Um, but so that, you know, that was that was, again, another blow to the ego. But I had some trusted readers, my, my sister, especially who just I gave her the finished manuscript, and she read it, and she was sort of blown away by it. She’s like, you cannot stop until you get this published, you know, you’ll find the right home for it. She was just so confident and instilled such confidence in me that, you know, I would have never thought of going out on my own and trying to get it published. But that’s what I wound up doing. And eventually, you know, I was not active on Twitter at all. But I sort of started dabbling in Twitter, as it did. So I came across a few really interesting, smaller presses in the US. I’m based in Canada, and one of those has press and we’ve got, you know, sort of corresponding back and forth with Subash advice, and it just seemed like a really nice home for the type of writing I was doing. So I just sort of reached out to Sebastian and Have I’ve got this novel? I’m not sure if you’d be interested. And he said, Well, you know, we don’t we don’t really publish novels here, but send me a synopsis. And we’ll see. So I sent him a synopsis. And he hit me back pretty quickly and said, Hey, this sounds really good. Send me the first three chapters. So I sent him the first three chapters, and he got finished reading now it’s he’s like, send me a whole thing. This is like, right in my wheelhouse. So I sent him the full manuscript. And it was only a couple of days later, he said, Yep, let’s consider this a tentative offer. Let’s iron out the details. But we’re in. And I was just like, Oh, my goodness, like I see it happen pretty quickly. Once it you know, once you find the right home, it was sort of that you just know, right away, like, alright, this is the place for me. And yeah, and I don’t want to speak for Sebastian and the folks that I cast press, but I think they probably felt the same way. And I think we got a really nice thing going here.

Okay, so that was, it started off with you actually trying to get agent, get it done via an agent. But that didn’t work out. And then you went through the Twitter process to find out cast press? And then what made you did you decide on our cast press right away? Or did you have multiple different places that you’re reaching out to? And then how did you end up deciding on outcaste? Press? A different location?

Yeah, well, I, I’d submitted to a couple of different places. And, you know, you just so oftentimes, your submission gets lost in the void. So, you know, there’s a few, there’s a few sort of query letters sitting out there and in the, you know, in the in the ether, but you know, as soon as I heard back from Sebastian was like, Alright, I’m reaching out to everyone that I had sent query letters to, and letting them know that, you know, I found a home and I’m withdrawing my submission. And I have to say, that was a pretty satisfying thing to do. You know, we’ve received enough rejection letters over the years, it’s fun to send rejection letters. Yeah, at some point, folks, that, you know, that may have rejected you. So now I was, I knew right away that OCAs was the place I wanted to be, they just lets you know, we’re sort of like, I feel like we’re a team. We’re in it together. They’re, they’re a small, upstart press. But I think they’ve got a really bright future ahead of them. And I’m just really excited to be a small part of that, that future as we try to get some great work out into the world.

I mean, that’s awesome, that you’re able to find someplace that you feel so connected with a group of people, and we at cinnabar moth also collaborate with Outcast press. And we do agree there are some wonderful people over there, and well being for their success as much as you are. I imagine. Yeah.

It’s funny, that I’ve said this before. Like my, my novel deals with some, you know, some some subjects that are not easy to read about, there’s some trauma, there’s some some drug use, there’s a trip into the jungle, and, you know, some some medicinal treatment with Ayahuasca. And there’s a bad language in there. And so that’s the sort of thing that, you know, would cause some other publishers and presses to just sort of say, sorry, this is a little too much for us. Yeah. But as soon as I heard from from OutKast, and Sebastian, they’re just like, this is like, the opening sentence has a four letter word in it. And Sebastian was just like, you had me at the first the first one. Sometimes you just know. So yeah, yeah, I knew there certainly the right place for me. And they’ve been just an absolute pleasure to work with, since since we connected here.

And so with working with OutKast press and going through the publishing with them, what would you say has been the most surprising thing in that experience of publishing with OutKast, press

M, prides probably two things have been the most surprising one has been the speed and the efficiency with which we’ve been able to get this work out there. And again, we’ve still got a little bit of work to do before October 15. But, you know, Sebastian, and I started talking in sort of mid April of this year. And by the time we had sort of put pen to paper and signed a contract, it was June. And he’s like, Yeah, we’re, we’re pushing for an October 15 publication date. And I was like, Oh my gosh, like, I always, you know, you hear about writers like, hey, signed a publishing deal. To be released spring 2024. system, your process, right, but without cast because because they’re, they’re smaller, they’re, they can be nimble, they can just get stuff done. And I feel like there’s been a lot of felt a lot of love and a lot of attention from them, because you know, they’ve got the anthology coming out on the same date, October 15. And, and this is the only novel they’ve got the published in the fall, so that it’s just sort of all hands on deck to try to get this done. So I’ve just been, I’ve been really amazed at the efficiency with which we’ve been able to get this published. So that was the first surprising thing. And the other is just the just the don’t say creative control, but I mean, they they really value. My opinion. The editor, Paige Johnson has been amazing to work with. She’s really talented editor. She’ll make suggestions. But she always says, Hey, listen, it’s your call, and this is your baby, this is your work. I think you should do this. But it’s, you’ve sort of got final say. So it’s been great. I mean, I just, you know, I was sort of under the impression that the editor was just gonna, you know, slash and burn and take out all of these great things that I love. But you know, she’s been really awesome. And she just said, this is, this is what I think you should do, but it’s your call. So it’s been it’s been a really productive working experience working with with paid the editor. So those are those are the two takeaways was the speed with which we’re able to get this into the world. And then just the creative control. I feel like I’ve gotten working with this great press.

So it’s been feeling like a collaborative process rather than okay. They’re taking your book now go away while we make it work.

Exactly. We own it. Thanks. Yeah, we’ll see when we publish it. Yeah, no, it’s it’s been I mean, it’s such a new experience. And it really is like a dream come true. I mean, I started writing, you know, not seriously, but you know, I was 16 years old, I wrote this story. And all my buddies loved it. And I was like, Oh, my goodness, like, maybe, maybe there’s something to this writing thing. So I’ve been writing pretty consistently, I’m 43 years old now. So, you know, that’s a lot of years, 27 years writing. And this is sort of like a dream come true. Finally having something published. And so I’ve just, I’ve loved rolling up my sleeves and getting to work with with the folks that I’ve cast brass and learning everything that I can through the whole process. So it’s been great to be as involved as they’ve allowed me to be. So it’s been great.

Well, I’m happy to hear that. And with you mentioned, you know, learning more about the process and having a bit more insight because the transparency with Holocaust press. So I want to ask you, when it comes to the publishing process in a more general sense, rather than specifically the UK, outcast? Is there something in particular that’s been surprising to you, or something you didn’t quite expect with the process?

Ah, I mean, I get it. I mean, the one surprising element has been the interest of from people outside of OCAs press. So like you guys, cinnabar moth and, and the guys said that the bastard sons of EDA PIs, and there’s a couple of other podcasts we’ve done, beyond the zero, just, you know, people I would have never expected to have any interest whatsoever. In in me or in the book, it just sort of been really gracious in reaching out and trying to learn more. So I mean, honestly, I was under the impression I was going to have to do so much of this on my own. And just the support that I received from Outcast press and from their network of like minded publishers, has been amazing. So that it really has been surprising in all the right ways.

Well, we’re happy to be part of that pleasant surprise that you’re experiencing. And, though Coulson’s trust the

EU, see, I didn’t know what to say.

I feel like it should be so much easier. It’s so smooth my head.

If everybody asked me like, What does that even mean? Difficult, stubborn. Yeah. So taken from a quote. There was an old, famous literary critic by the name of Lionel Trilling. He was writing about the work of Faulkner and Hemingway. And he described those guys as being hard at work on the recalcitrant stuff of life. And I remember reading that quote, being like, Oh, that’s such a great turn of phrase. And I just, I wrote it down, like when I was 19 years old, and I just filed it away. And as like, one day, I’m gonna find a place for this and, you know, this sort of like the, the third title that I that I penciled in for this book, like I had one title, and then I switched it to something else. And then I settled on and I say, oh, yeah, that recalcitrance stuff of life. That’s such a great phrase. And it sort of ties into some of the themes of this book. So we settled on that, but it doesn’t make it any easier to say. So. Bring that word back into mainstream here.

Yeah, for sure. So, let me try this again. The recall system stuff of life is coming out on October 15, which is, you know, compared to the amount of time he spent on it as basically around the corner, right. So how do you plan to celebrate the release of the book wants to that’s out there.

Yeah, so it’s funny. You’ve spoken to Sebastian, and maybe some of the other folks at at outcross, there are outcasts, there. They’re a bit of a wild bunch over there. And when, when Sebastian and I first started talking, and it looked like we were going to get this deal done, I said, you know, my, I’ve got this like cast of friends who like to have a good time, we’ve been known to throw a few raucous parties. So I said, my goal is for the book launch to eventually have a shut down by the police, because it’s just such a wild party. So we’ve got I live, I live in Canada, just outside of Toronto, in a quiet little town suburban town called Burlington, and got a decent sized backyard. So I think the plan is we’re going to have a big little, you know, big sort of book launch in our backyard, October 15. And, you know, we, most of my friends, you know, we’ve all got wives, we’ve all got kids, we don’t get much these days, I think, I think we’re gonna light it up a little bit. So and, you know, I’d say virtually, nobody I know has ever been to a reading before. And I put myself into that group as well believe it or not, I’ve never been to a book launch. I’ve never been to a reading before. So I always sort of told myself, the first reading I ever attended was going to be my own. So I’m looking forward to getting this out of the way so I can start attending other people’s readings. So we’re not quite sure how to do a reading. So we’re gonna put our own spin on it and have a big bash here in the backyard. And I feel pretty confident it’ll eventually get shut down by the police. So that’s, that’s the goal. Well, some books, we’re going to have a good time and, and stay up late. make lots of noise.

Okay, sounds like you have an exciting time for yourself with that. And would you say, with the seeking of excitement, would you say that your family is excited about the books release?

They are definitely, um, it’s, again, they they just sort of didn’t have an idea that I was working on something. I think they just sort of thought that I’d put the writing thing away. So they were there. They were pretty shocked when I said that I had this this manuscript that I’ve been working on for the past 12 years ago, I was going to be published. So they’re thrilled I’ve got I mean, obviously my parents are excited. My dad is my mom’s a great reader. My dad, not so much. He’s like, hey, gotta make sure there’s an audio book, okay, cuz I don’t really want to read. Make sure there’s an audio book for me. But they’re really stoked. My brother hasn’t read it yet. He’s gonna get a kick out of it. My sister has read it. Like I said, she’s been my biggest cheerleader, along with my wife. And then I’ve got some, some uncles and aunts who are voracious readers. I think they’re pretty excited. So yeah, families. They’re stoked. We don’t have any any you know, quote, unquote, real writers in our family. Got a lot of great storytellers. But but no real writers. So this is, it’s a big deal for us. We’re excited. I am. I come from like, my dad was born in Ireland, all my uncle’s born in Ireland. So sort of a long line of barroom storytellers, no published authors. So it’s a big deal for us. So yeah, we’re pretty stoked.

That’s awesome that you have a network of family that’s, you know, excited about your book release. And also the are mostly readers from what the sounds of it?

Yeah, no, definitely. We were at my, my grandmother, unfortunately, passed away a couple of weeks ago, she lived to 95. You know, if we could all be so lucky. But we had her her service on Friday. And then we had, like, a bit of a wake at my uncle’s place afterwards. And there’s so much talk about books, what are you reading? What’s great, what do you recommend? I mean, it’s great to be in a family that, that values, great, great, you know, literature and contemporary literature. And it’s just, it’s really cool. So much of my influence, from the books I love have come from recommendations of family members. So it’s pretty cool to grow up that way. And I mean, they’re all just sort of self taught lovers of literature, you know, no, no real formal education. I’ve got one uncle who’s an English teacher, the rest, you know, they’re one. One one’s a judge, one’s a one’s a stock trader, my dad’s a house painter.

Wide variety walks of life. Yeah.

But, you know, they all have their own sort of unique tastes. And and I’ve sort of gobbled up their recommendations over the years. So there’s a, there’s a little part of each of them in this book, so I’m thrilled to share it with them.

I think that’s awesome that you got the opportunity to share this and you’ve taken all this influence from a wide variety of different tastes and perspectives. And you mentioned before this your first publication, is that correct? Is this your first novel that’s been published?

Yeah. first novel I’ve, I have, you know, I’ve got a few articles published, you know, in local, sort of all all weekly magazines and that sort of thing, but nothing, nothing of this size. Or this important. So this is a big one for us.

What are you hoping happens next email it’s going to be published. But then after that, what are your goals? Or what are your ideas about what might happen after publication?

Ah, that’s, that’s a good question. No hopes and goals versus reality. You know, that’s what it is. I it’s funny. I don’t know. You don’t have kids yet, right. Rasta night don’t know, kids. So yeah, um, I think I mentioned my kids are 10 and eight. It’s a great Disney movie that came out earlier this year called Soul. I don’t know, if you watch that one. Did you see that?

I think I’ve heard of it, but haven’t had the opportunity to watch yet.

It is. So like, you know, I watch on kids movies with my children. It’s like, forget the kids movie. mocker is a great movie. But this is one part where the guy you know, his lifelong dream is to play in this jazz quartet with this, this jazz singer that he loves. And he finally gets to do it. And then afterwards, he’s just, you know, he says, like, you know, he’s expecting his life to be totally different. He says, you know, well, what next? And the jazz singer says, well, we come back and do it all again tomorrow. Ah, I think change. Like, I sort of feel like that’s, that’s, you know, it’s gonna be great to get it out into the world. I don’t, I don’t think my life is gonna change all that much. I’m, what do I want to happen? I want people to read it. I hope they enjoy it. You know, there’ll be people who don’t like it, it’s there’s, like I said, there’s some pretty heavy stuff in there. I feel like a lot of people will will really like it. I you know, just this is sort of like a crazy little ridiculous sort of goal I have, I just love to be like, riding the subway one day, or riding a bus one day and see some perfect stranger. Just reading my book. Like, that would just be the coolest thing. And I just sort of, you know, see, see, see what their face looks like? Are they enjoying it? I just, you know, for a total stranger to be reading something that I you know, put so much of myself into, I just think would be really cool. So I mean, honestly, that’s, that’s all I want is just to one day see a perfect stranger reading reading the book. Yeah, what do I hope comes in? Right? Yeah, of course you want it to? You want it to sell and, you know, it’s it’s never about the money. You know, it’s like my, I didn’t write the book I’ve been writing for for 27 years without getting making any money. So it’s, it’s never about the money. Of course, if it if it were by some miracle to become some massive, it paid lots of money. And you know, it can write full time. That would be phenomenal. But that’s probably not not realistic. Right? I just, I just wanted to get out there. I want it. I want people to enjoy it. And yeah, so that’s, that’s my goal. I hope I hope people read it.

And so you mentioned that you have the goal of you know, people reading it. But are you thinking about making a career or hoping to be able to make a career out of writing? Or are you thinking it’s more of you want to show your creativity? And then you’ve got your, your current job? And you’re comfortable with that?

Yeah, well, I mean, the dream would be to be able to write full time, I mean, I, I’ve got a great job. I’ve been working at the same place for 15 years work with great people that for me a lot of freedom. So no complaints on my current job. But you know, I always say like, if I won the lottery, the first thing I do is just write full time. That’s all that’s I think any writer, any writer, that’s, that’s the goal. So yeah, if this word again, by some miracle to become some some massive hit, you know, becomes part of the Oprah book club. I think that’s, that’s how you become independently wealthy. And of course, no expectations of that. But if that were to happen, and in you know, we had enough money to pay our mortgage and pay our bills, I could write full time that absolutely, I would love to do that. That’s just the dream life. But more realistically, you know, keep plugging away and try to carve out time to write when we can, but I do think, you know, getting one published novel, under one’s belts will just naturally afford you more time to write because, you know, I can tell my wife, Hey, I gotta go, gotta go get to work on the next one. There was something to the first one we actually got to publish. So now I gotta get to work on the next one. So of course my kids are getting older. Sadly, there’s there’s gonna come a point in the not too distant future when they don’t want to hang around with me. So I feel like you near future, I’m gonna have more time on my hands and I currently do. But yeah, I think the goal would be to write full time if I could do that, then that will just be a dream come true. So, you know, we’ll, we’ll see, I’ll keep playing the lottery. Yeah. And then we’ll see what happens with with this book here.

So see what happens, this book can you know, the dream of being able to make writing career? One potential way that that happens is, you know, the book becomes a best seller. If the recalcitrant stuff of life, you know, a best seller. What would you do? Or would you have any ideas of what you can do with that?

Well, oh, man, I’d be I’d be thrilled. Of course, I think, you know, we’d have, we’d have a lot to celebrate, you know, myself and in the team and outcasts press. Um, but yeah, if it if it became a best seller, I honestly, I’m not even sure what would that means anywhere. That means lots of people are reading it, and lots of people are enjoying it. So obviously, we’d love that would probably mean we have a little bit of money to do something with so that would be that’d be awesome. Um, but yeah, I honestly don’t know if that would change too much. I don’t think it would change the way I write, and I don’t think it would change what I want to write next. I mean, I feel like, if you have a best seller, you might fall into the trap of, oh, well, now I’ve got to write something a lot like that thing I already did. Because people liked it, I certainly wouldn’t want to fall into that trap. So I’d want to be true to myself in what I want to write and what I feel like I have got to share with with the world. So it’d be it’d be be great thing to happen if it were to become a best seller. But I honestly don’t know if it would change too much. I’d like to think it would change me, you know, a motor come of fame. But yeah, well, I guess we’ll just have to see, well, we’ll cross that bridge, if we’re fortunate enough to get there.

Thank you. So your, your, your ideas that it’s you’re gonna do your best to keep true to how you want to be as a writer, and not let the success get to you so to speak.

Exactly. Yeah. I mean, honestly, the fact that it’s being published, I feel like I have achieved. I’ve, I’ve achieved sort of a life goal. And the book that that I’ve written and that the outcast press is putting out is, I think what, you know, everything I wanted it to be, if it becomes a bestseller, that’s great. And if you know, if there’s only, you know, a couple 1000 people that read it, and that’s great to, you know, um, I just hope that once you read it, you know that it stays with them. But you know, what, we’ll just have to see.

Yeah, I suppose we will have to see and expanding on that we will have to see mentality, let’s go beyond bestseller. That’s imagine the recalcitrant stuff of life has the potential to become a movie or TV show? Is that something you’d want to happen? And if so, do you have any ideas about which one you’d prefer? Movie TV show?

Yeah, well see now see, now you’re talking. We want financial independence. Yeah. Let’s turn it into a movie. Um, yeah, I mean, so many of the books that I love, um, I either came to as a movie first or, you know, I love the book, and then it got turned into a movie. My, my favorite book, guru of novella growing up. Not growing up when I was 1516 years old was the body by Stephen King, which is the is the the novel, The novella that they base the movie, stand by me around. And when you know, when I’ve said this on a couple of other podcasts, when we were growing up, me and my buddies, we were completely obsessed with that movie. And we’ve reenacted it and camped out down Creek, we just did everything short of stumbling across a dead body, that those guys came by me. And it was just an absolutely perfect movie that could never be taught. And then when I was, I want to say 15 years old, I came across the Stephen King novella, and I read it and it’s just like, Oh, my God, like, the book is better than the movie, you got this perfect movie, and the book is better out like, how’s that even possible? And that’s really what made me want to be a writer. And like I said, so many of the books that I love have been turned into movies. So that would be that would be great. I mean, if, you know, in the same way that I’ve gone along for the ride on this publishing experience, again, this is a one in a million shot, but if it were made into a movie, I of course, I’d love to be involved in that and learn as much as I can from that process because, you know, who would want to go to Hollywood who Wouldn’t want to hang out? Yeah. So that would be I mean that. That would be fantastic.

So following up on this idea of it becoming a movie, do you have an idea of the type of people or any particular individuals that you’d want to cast for the book? In this hypothetical world?

No, I mean, I probably leave that to the experts. I do have a buddy, a really good buddy of mine does an acting, my buddy Sally, he’s in some commercials. And he said, When we found out this was getting published, he’s like, if they make this a movie, you got to give me a part. One, you know, I certainly make sure he has some minor role. In the it’s funny, but you know, 15 years ago, he probably could have played the role of one of the main characters, but we’re all a little older than the characters in the book now. So we might have to play one of the weird guys hanging out at the hospital. One of the weird older guys hanging around the shaman, sadly, we’re past our prime there. But yeah, no, no idea on who the actors would be. But you know, that’s probably getting a little ahead of ourselves, as long as my buddy Sally can star in the movie, not starring. Make a cameo in the movie. And, yeah, so and then my my sister’s a singer, songwriter. So maybe they can give her a song. But beyond that, and we’ll let the experts do their thing.

That’s up on the running the experts do the thing. Would you not want to have a lot of creative control during the process? Or what would be your feelings about creative control when it came to the movie? Because you mentioned before you’re enjoying the creative control that you sort of have with? Yeah, editing process and such. But what about if it was going into the movie environment and medium?

Right. That’s an interesting thought, again, I feel like we’re getting completely ahead of ourselves. Yeah, and I’d like to be a part of it. But you know, I truly know nothing about making movies. I’m not sure what I’m not sure what I could offer them. I probably want to have some say in the script. But beyond that, you know, let’s let’s, let’s put put, put the aces in their places, let them do their thing. And I’m sure that we wind up with a better movie. With the movie, people making the movie as opposed to the, you know, the fledgling author trying to tell everybody what to do. I’d love to do.

Hey, you mentioned before that you’d want to go to Hollywood if it made it. And in that case, do you have ideas of who you’d bring with you? I imagine you’d bring your wife of course.

Oh, absolutely. Bring my wife. Yeah, bring bring my kids. You know, we’ll get it down there just to just show them what it’s all about. Yeah, of course, we’d love to love to have them. See, see that sort of thing come to life on the screen for sure. Bring them along.

Okay. As you mentioned before, you’re the body and the work of Stephen King is part of what got you really into writing, right?

Yeah, it’s funny. I mean, I don’t read a ton of Stephen King, but the body just as that one off, being obsessed with the movie was really got really got me into this idea that the book could be better than the movie. But to be honest, I don’t read a ton of Stephen King, I have nothing but respect for the guy. And he’s just he says bigger writer as there is there is. But my wife is a big fan of his. So I’ve read a few of his works, but still got some work to do. I haven’t haven’t read all this stuff yet.

But would you want to be? Let’s assume that, you know, you said before they were getting a bit ahead of ourselves with just talking about being a best seller or 10 cm movie. But let’s talk about fame for a little bit. If you could be as famous as Stephen King, where you lost your anonymity? Would you want that level of fame? Or would you want a bit of a more scaled back but more anonymous form of fame? What level of fame would you like to achieve? If you had if you could just like pin it on a chart or on a graph?

Right? Um, yeah, like author fame is a whole lot different from from, you know, movie star fame, I think, which is good thing. I mean, I mean, honestly, I consider myself pretty well read as I’m sure you are. But it’d be hard to pick a lot of our favorite writers out of like a police line. And honestly, that’s that’s a great thing about the great thing about being an author is, you know, only your most diehard fans are gonna actually be able to recognize you. Of course, Stephen King’s on a whole other level. I mean, he is he’s a rock star writer. I even think of you know, I love Jay McInerney. And he had he had a great run in the 80s where he was sort of a he was a rock star writer, but I mean today I’m sure he can walk around New York City and and be left. Mostly alone. Um, I got some of my favorite contemporary writers like Lily King, I love her work. See core guessin Boyle. I mean, these are to me, these are heroes of mine. And I’m sure they can walk down any street, they want to be left left alone. I mean, most people don’t know who they are. And again, the only ones who are coming up to talk to them. But once you’ve read their work and probably want to talk about the work, it sounds like Oh, my God,

oh, my God, there’s TC Boyle, I have to get my photo with them. We’re guessing well, but I don’t know that that happens all that much. You know.

So that’s, I mean, to me, that’s, that’s one of the great things about being writers you think, unless you are Stephen King, and none of us are going to be left alone. And that’s, and that’s a great thing. There are so few, you know, professions, artistic professions that you can say that about, I mean, any musician is going to be recognized any actor is going to be recognized. You know, a lot of painters will be recognized, but for writers, you know, I think we will get left alone. So, yeah, if fame is in the cards and bring it on. I’ll take it.

Okay, so you’ll take it as far as as far up as it goes, so to speak.

Yeah, yeah. Again, no illusions about becoming Stephen King. So I don’t think we need to worry about that. But yeah, you know, if at one point in time, we got recognized by one person, for being a writer. Yeah, I think that’d be a pretty cool thing.

Okay. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah, the writing profession does have that unique quality of our face doesn’t really get put with the work, even if people know our names, right? Because you might have that experience, like you mentioned about being on like public transportation or something on a bus. And you see somebody and they’re reading a book, and they could look up at you look right through you. complete stranger still, despite absolutely loving what you’ve written.

Yeah, exactly. Like, they can just be like, Who’s this weird guy looking at? You? My face is on the back of the book. You know, they would have no idea, which is great. No, I think that, that allows you to be a better writer because you’re not, you know, you can be objective, you’re never going to be you know, you’ll always sort of be who you are. And it’ll never go to your head. Because you’re you’re almost never going to be recognized. So I think that’s that’s one of the great things about being being a writer.

Yeah, I do agree that that does help with keeping us grounded as we write. And so today, I think that you’ve talked quite a bit about the calcium trust of the why is it so hard to say?

Yeah, I think the book launch we may get some T shirts made up just have the the definition of the word. You know, have people say recalcitrant?

Yeah, I know the definition. I’ve used the word before, actually. But I think I’m gonna say it correctly. And I think that’s what’s happening. I’m tripping myself up the recalcitrant stuff of life. See, I didn’t do it this time.

It’s fine. Nailed it. Nailed it.

So the recalcitrant stuff of life. Okay, the recalcitrant stuff of life is coming out on October 15 2021. For everybody listening at home, you know, you can mark it on the calendar and be excited about the book launch. And, Sean, I’d like to thank you for talking with me today and being on the writers triangle.

Yeah, thanks. All right. This was a lot of fun, great conversation really, really appreciated chatting with you today.

Yeah, I really enjoyed talking with you as well. And I’d like to thank all of my all of our beautiful moss for listening. Almost said Mike. I feel so possessive of all our fans even though it’s not just me. And love it is sure to check out and purchase the recalcitrant stuff of life coming out on October 15 2021. And before we go though, Shawn, could you tell us where to find you social media websites, anything of the sort?

Yeah, so yeah, on Twitter, Shawn, four, two, the number four to and then my last name McCallum. So Shawn is S E A N v Irish spelling, which makes no sense. Yes, EA N for two. And then McCallum MCC a ll un on Twitter, my my writers website. Oh my goodness, it hasn’t been updated in forever. So soon as we get this finished, edited. I’m going to put some time and effort into updating my writers website, but it’s Sean mccallum.com. But like maybe hold off till like, you know, mid September to go there because it’s totally out of date. But yeah. Sean mccallum.com, and then Shawn for to McCallum on Twitter.

Okay, and for everybody listening, be sure to visit cinnabar moth calm and check out the transcripts where we’ll have the links to all of Sean social media and the web. that he just mentioned and again Shawn thank you for coming on today it’s been a pleasure having you in talking with you

alright thanks for asking I really appreciate your time

Yeah. And goodbye.