Episode 19: Leia John Interview

R
Hello cinnabar moth are any kind of moth you’d like to be? Welcome to the writers triangles cinnabar moth podcast about all things publishing and books. Today we’re here with Leo John, the winner of the 2021 cinnabar moth collection literary collections Award for Excellence in poetry. modulations on you win, how’re you doing today?

L
Good, I’m tired. I’m still, I still can’t believe it’s 2021 I feel like I’m still processing 2020 Like, we just get the hell out of a whole year and I don’t know what happened to it.

R
Right? It’s as if it’s, it just kind of got compressed into 2019 and then where’s where to go?

L
Yeah, for sure. You know, what’s really fucked up is like, I remember thinking in 2019, like, man, it’s like an idea as yours are always really shitty. 2020 is gonna be great. Like, even your amazing internet. You’re like the shitty is that shit yours ever is. Like, great. And like, I was so so 2019 Because Rage Against the Machine announced they were touring again. I’m like, all this fit. Like, this is my year, I can die happy. You know, it’s it’s my favorite band. And then I was like, Please, God, don’t let COVID book this up for me. And it did. And it’s just been pushed off the last two years. So maybe next summer. I’ll be able to finally see them in concert.

R
Hopefully, you’ll be able to see them. I think they’ll be a lot of fun for you. I hope I’m hoping. Oh. And for all the other.

L
Me too. Yeah, yeah. Like, I feel like at that point, like, once I see I bought two tickets to shows like 600 bucks, right? And like, I feel like you could just shoot me in the head after the first show. And I will be like, Yay, I’ve completed everything that I’ve come to this earth for. Like, amazing. Great. Cool.

R
Yeah, so you kind of got this a bit of frustration with not having been able to do it for the year. And year and a half now. Probably. Since they announced it, I’m guessing.

L
Yeah. That’s crazy. I don’t know what the hell like 2020 just dissolved into. I don’t know, it was like a really good year, in some ways. really shitty one. I mean, obviously, like, the shit was COVID. Like, it was great because I didn’t have to, like travel down in New York City six hours away from me by car if I’m driving, you know, every week to work on my masters. So like the last years been like, Oh, this is great. I don’t have to wake up at one in the morning and drive or whatever. And now I’m back to like, in the city every week, and I hate it there so much. So, but like, yeah, like, yeah, the good stuff has been like, Matthias over at Newington blue happen to find me, somehow, some way and the abyss that is WordPress. And like it kicked off this whole publishing thing, which is still very bizarre.

R
With that, you you have the chapbook Fuckit. Chapter was the poetry that has the poet poem, that one the Excellence in poetry award for 2021 from cinnabar. Moth collections. How does it feel to be the winner? How does it feel to get that email and find that out?

L
You know, like I said before, just everything’s really bizarre. And I really do question everybody that likes this shit. Like, guys are demented. Like, I know that I’m fucked up and sick. But like, I didn’t know, there were that many other people that were that fucked up and sick too, you know. But it’s nice. It’s very strange. Like, it’s the strangeness and the like, I guess, like cognitive dissonance of it all is, is the lasting impression, or, or the. Yeah, so it’s just the lasting impression for me that this is like, and I didn’t intend any of this. It just all kind of happens. I mean, it’s really cool. It’s just really weird,

R
huh? So you’re still kind of adjusting to the reality of it.

L
Mm hmm. Yeah. Sorry. I’m smoking a cigarette and drinking coffee because that’s what I do at 915. Eastern time on a Sunday night. Yeah, it’s just, it’s just just really strange.

R
Okay, so the entire chat book is called Fuckit. And can you tell me a little bit about the inspiration behind the champ book and the title The poems themselves?

L
Sure, actually, you know, it’s funny, I’ll tell you a secret. I had no name for it for months until like the week before it was published. And Matthias is like, Have you thought of anything? And I’m like, No, but you know, like How about bucket or? Well, it seemed like a good idea at the time. He’s like, No, we gotta be fuckin like he’s, he’s the one that think that. And the more that I think about it, it really is very apropos to this whole situation because like, I started this WordPress shit. I think like last October Yeah, so a year ago, maybe this week or something. And I was like, Well, you know, I’ve been writing for my entire life. And I was like, Well, fuck it. Let me put it on. We put it on WordPress. See if anybody likes this shit. Maybe I’ll meet up with some other poets and we can pitch or something, you know. And then Matthias Gong me and he’s like, do you want to, you know, publish a couple poems in this because he anthology and like, I fuck it. Let’s do it. You know? Why not? That’s pretty cool. And then he’s like, do you want to, like I got a grant for three chapbooks, you want do you want to do a full chapter here on poetry? Like, fuck it? Yeah, sure. So it’s like, you know, and then it was like, you know, fuck it. Of course, I’ll join Twitter, you know? So it seems to be the running theme with everything in this whole literary thing that I’m doing. So yeah, maybe I’ll get it tattooed somewhere. Why not? Okay. So it’s just the whole. Okay, no, go ahead.

R
So it’s just kind of the inspiration line. Here, your choice to start doing everything is just, why the hell not pocket?

L
Pretty much it was like, you know, I got, I think I was like, between semesters, or no, maybe it wasn’t, I’m fucking you know, I can’t remember anymore. But like, I just figured, you know, whatever, man, put this shit up here. Like, I had a lot of stuff sitting and kind of rotting. And I might as well put it online, you know, if somebody ripped me apart, when nobody has yet I’m really disappointed about I need somebody to like, tell me that I’m a disappointment to my mother. So I can stay humble or something. I don’t know. Like, it’s just been very strange. It was a lot of a lot of older stuff that I’ve just kept around. Shit from like, nothing from my early teens was so fucking dreadful. You know. But I just couldn’t. I couldn’t bear like, I have some scrap of pride, I guess, left in this speaking body. But I just couldn’t put some of that stuff on here. But it was a lot for my early 20s. And then, when I started posting that, you know, I just started writing again. And it just started coming out. And I remember, it was coming out so much that I started scheduling posts. And before I knew it, like I had eight months, or something posted like a poem a day. And I’m like, Well, cool, I’ll schedule those out. Maybe like people will like it and follow, and I don’t have to do shit. Because that was what I was doing. I was in my semester at that point, mid mid portion of my semester, and like, I can’t fuck around with this. So that ended up helping a lot.

R
Okay, so once it started flying it, it started, it just kept coming out. And now you’ve got a chapbook you’ve got a website that’s filled with quite a bit of your poetry and will continue to have quite a bit of poetry coming from you.

L
Sure, yeah. And like I got another poetry book coming out. I think like next week. Oh, wow. Called swell the summer it’s with budget press. It’s a little it’s much more tame than fuck it is. It’s a running theme. Kind of or it’s like the story of a relationship that never really happen. Never, never really materialized is still kind of this warm, nostalgic place marked by some, you know, nasty shit. But I’m pretty happy with it. I’m pretty happy that Johnny Baker over budget really liked it. If he’s, like, if this was not the project he was supposed to have. I was working on another project. And that turned into this behemoth that like will probably come out next year. But I’m like do that like this? I have to save this one for me. I got to save this one for me. How about this one? He’s like, this is great. Thanks like oh my god. Thank you. You know, cuz I could have went sideways pretty pretty quickly.

R
Yeah. That’s lucky. You’ve got things unfortunate you know you. I am also a fan of your work. I do feel it has the sense of kind of raw and unfiltered emotion being expressed without regard for The impact on the other person so much as I’m expressing myself, and here’s the video of it the nitty gritty. Because a lot of time things can be very flowery when it comes to poetry.

L
Yeah, yeah, for sure. And like I, like, I fuck it. I’m just gonna say, you know, like, I think that kind of poetry that’s flowery is shit. I think it lacks imagination. And I think it lacks a lot of guts. And I don’t, I don’t want to fucking read it. And I don’t think a lot of people want to read it. And so I’m confused as to why people are still writing this trash. You know? Like, that’s just my opinion, you know, and I’m an asshole, so you can disregard it. But, you know, in the end, like, I’m not writing for anybody else I’m writing for me like, this was like, it’s like a poetry journal. Right? I never expected anybody to see any of this shit. So I’m like, Well, I’m not writing for an audience. So who gives a fuck anyway? And then, like, as I started releasing it, I was like, well, maybe maybe I should edit this to be less raw. And then I’m like, my laziness one out and like, Nah, fuck them, you know, so not for anybody else. But me. Like, if you’d like it cool. If you don’t go by, you know, um, Browning, or, you know, whoever recovery to fuckin Jane Austen novel, I don’t know, I’m not, I’m not the pitch for you. And that’s okay.

R
So it’s going a bit deeper into the poems that have written one, the one that we’ve chosen as the winner of the board of x for excellence in poetry is cognac. And so cognac, I believe, captures some of that raw emotion, in a way that’s it captures the predatory nature of the male actor in the poem and the poem, without going into any of the details, it still has that kind of foreboding sense to it, and tells the story without telling any of the story in a lot of ways. And so,

L
yeah, for sure, for sure. Yeah.

R
So I wanted to ask you a bit about your, you said that you’ve written these throughout your entire life. And so I was wondering, what was your inspiration, as you as your inspiration changed for, as you’ve started writing these poems and moved on? And continue

L
continued? Um, you know, no, I mean, I guess like, if I have to say what, like, my inspiration is anything, it’s, it’s my life, as I move through it, you know, all of these are embodied experience. But there are points in time that I really wish some of these were not true. Like, you know, shitting my pants, that would be great if it wasn’t true, three or four times over, but it has happened. And, like, I think it’s like, what the fuck you’re gonna do, you’re gonna laugh at it, right? So I might as well make some other people laugh at it. Like, you can’t spare. Spare yourself, I don’t think but like, it’s just my life. And I’m writing about it in the way and the way that I know how and then the way that I process it, right? So like, something just comes to me and sit down and go, Okay, I’m gonna, I’m gonna write this, I have an idea. That’s how I definitely write my academic stuff. That is definitely how I wrote my third poetry. chapbook. But that was a running theme. So it was very, very intentional. But like, the rest of it, it’s just the chaos, it’s coming out of my brain at any given time, you know, two o’clock in the morning, and I’m like, oh, fuck, I gotta write this down really quick, cuz I’m going to forget it. You know, and if I sit and quiet long enough, something will always come up. You know, Cognac is just a snippet of, of, it’s actually a repressed memory. So the story behind it and very broad strokes, I guess, is like I was, you know, between 14 and 17. It was preyed upon by a male that was much older than me. By I think, like 16 years. I was 14, he was 31 when we first met, and it was something that carried on for quite some time. And I think like, if I’m looking I’m looking at cognac right now, I kind of laugh at it because it’s very good at sardonically laugh at it because it’s very tongue in cheek. You know, it says what it is without saying what it is if you have the eyes to catch it, and that was not particularly my intention. My intention was just really to capture a repressed memory as it happened, right? And I think what’s like funny or odd, or even, like, infuriating about it is that it’s tongue in cheek because the after effects of grooming are still there. Right? You know, don’t tell anybody. You can’t tell anybody this thing that’s going on. So I’m telling, like, in a way, I’m telling you without telling you. It’s, it’s fucked up. It’s really funny because I remember a couple, I think was a couple of years ago before COVID For sure. And I was going to see a concert with my best friend and be together, like 37 years, you know? Or excuse me, like 32 years. And we were talking about this dude. And I’m like, oh, yeah, you know. And I mentioned his age, his age when I was 14. So he was like, 30, he just turned 31. She’s like, fucking what? And I’m like, Yeah, you know, she’s like, holy shit. I thought he was like, our agent, and whatever. And I’m like, holy shit. And that blew me away, right? Like, this, this son of a bitch groomed me so well, that, like, my best friend didn’t even know. And we knew everything about each other. I mean, she knew everything about like, the relationship between him and I, but didn’t know that it was this, you know, kind of feel like a thing. So like, I’m still processing a lot of that shit. For last three years, I guess. Like, what fucked me up was I don’t know if you remember this. A few years ago, this this series came out I think it was on a&e. And was surviving are Kelly. And I made a horrible, horrible mistake of watching all the app, like binge watching all the episodes was like, I’m, I’m, I’m into this, I want to I want to watch this crazy shit. I remember the trial back in the 90s. And like, it just started triggering, triggering a bunch of shit. And I was like, Holy shit, like a lot of the same stuff. Like the grooming process was really, really similar. I mean, there wasn’t any, like physical abuse, you know, but it was similar enough like the like, just the way that this guy would do things. And the situation surrounding both of them was really interesting. give you that much. But that’s what started it all all this processing and like triggering of repressed memory that all this shit. And that’s what you get in cognac. Which, you know, you’re playing with this idea of doing a chapbook of poetry, like letters to my pedophile or something, you know, something like that. But I don’t know, I I don’t know that I have the balls to do that. Like the postscript would have to be something like mom don’t read this, you know? Like, I would hate for her to come across something like that. But I think it would be cathartic, but I just don’t know that I’m ready for it myself.

R
I imagine that takes quite a bit of work to get through and I don’t think ever necessarily truly, you finish working through it necessarily. But I do hope that your process that goes as smoothly as it can. Feels weird saying that way. Yeah, I hope that it’s not No, too terrible for you and that you’re able to you know, go through your your process too. process it.

L
Yeah, you know, it’s repression is so much easier. I almost prefer it at this point. Like, I don’t want to deal with this shit right now. You know, I don’t want to deal with it ever. I’d rather just shove it down let it fester and rot cool, we’re good. We love you know, school bond was life. But you know, the, the after effects of something like that really fucks with your head, you know, like you end up walking out of a situation like that with very, very disordered, especially that young you know, your brain just isn’t fully formed. You walk out with very, like dysfunctional and disordered thoughts of love and sex and relationships and what these things are. And like so you live your life a certain way thinking like, oh, okay, everything’s cool. And you’re like, oh, fuck, I got daddy issues and like pedophile issues. Great. Let’s compound that shit. Oh, why not write a chapter for poetry but me, right? Yeah.

R
Yeah, that does sound quite difficult. But you have written the chant book of poetry. And you have started your process for developing and processing through that. And going back to the inspiration process, you mentioned that you draw inspiration from your own life for a lot of your work, and that you have a few projects going on in the future. And so I was curious, when it comes to your future projects. Are you hoping to be able to continue doing chapbooks? Is that going to be your main goal with your writing? Or are you hoping to take it in a different direction? What’s your overall goal with your poetry?

L
Honestly, like I don’t know that there’s any other direction to take it in. Other than chapbooks like I just don’t know shit about the literary scene. It was not something I intended to get into. That was a okay with this little you know armpit of the inner uh on WordPress and whatever. So for me it’s like okay cool like chapel chapel chapel God, like what else is there to do? That are like, live tweet some weird shit. Like, I mean, like, I can’t imagine anything else aside for I don’t know you have any ideas you want to pitch to me? Yeah,

R
I wasn’t sure if you’re if you’re planning on expanding from poaching going to other forms of media, for example.

L
Oh, well, you know, Christopher’s been on my ass really hard to start working on an album, and I keep telling them that like, I can’t fucking hang man, like, I’m a poet that cannot write fiction. Like, it’s just not gonna happen. But I have tried flash and I use air quotes here, flash fiction, it’s not really fiction, I’m just drawing from my life. And it’s creative nonfiction, but like, nobody would believe me. Anyway, I got one about a, oh, I got one about something happen a couple weeks ago, somebody pissed on the train, like on it in it in the train. And I’m like, I gotta write about that, that’ll be great. But like, I just don’t know that I could transition over to like full length stories I can’t, like I operate so much out of my own narrative. And I’m so used about used to writing about my embodied experiences that trying to imagine writing something like a novel where there has to be dialog, it just, it’s gonna end up being me talking to myself, which is really weird. And probably not that interesting. Yeah, I don’t think that I could go, I think I could do flash fiction. I think I can do you know, creative nonfiction, for sure. But anything more than that, it’s going to be a steaming pile of shit.

R
Well, I think that you do have a very creative mind. And that, whether you decide to maybe maybe a separate thing, but I think that you’re capable, you could write a novel if you chose to it whether or not you feel comfortable doing so of course, is your own prerogative. But when it comes to poetry, you do have a wonderful body of work already. And are you hoping to win any more poetry awards? Or are you just thinking I’ll just continue to pump out the chat books and see what happens.

L
Honestly, like, I don’t know, the only other award that I’ve gotten or even knew, knew about, and that was in the moment somebody recommended to me was the I need to make Andrews award for poetry and human rights. And that was last year. I was like, okay, cool. Like, I got the perfect ship for that. Let me put it in. And I like I ended up winning it, which was pretty dope. And like, because I could identify that fucking film is funny because I was in seminary a few years ago prior to this one. And we had to one of our class assignments was to write a song. Right? Like from the Bible, like write a song. I fucking hate songs. Like, if anybody knows me, it’s the book of the Bible. I can’t fucking stand and I’m like, Okay, I’m gonna write a song. So I ended up writing this thing and I’m like, Okay, this is not that bad. Turn it in, got in a cool did my job. But then I ended up like, looking at like, Hey, this is pretty chill. So I ended up submitting a fucking class assignment from three more than that five years ago. For a poetry contest and won like, you know, I don’t know 100 bucks, there’s a really cool like, I’m shit. I’m gonna go out and get dinner for myself. But other than that, like, I don’t know of any other awards other than, like, pushcart, and like, A, somebody has been joking with me. Like they’re gonna nominate my ass eating pome art and I’m like, oh, fuck, like, Well, that’ll be something different for them. Like don’t do that. That’s a bad troll, but it’s still pretty funny. That would be great. I could get like a coming or shitting foam. Or like an ass eating poem when a pushcart pinnacle of my life are there.

R
So that’s something to aspire to. You write a poem so good that they take it even though it’s about Yeah, eating out eating. Yeah,

L
yeah. Yeah, why not? You got to represent all the genres.

R
Yeah, there is a quite a variety. And there’s a range of audiences. I’m sure there there are plenty of people that would eat it up, so to speak.

L
For sure. It’s funny because like I was looking at who started the pushcart, like all of these people’s ass hairs would be in a fucking not if like, they even saw some of my work but like, it’s like a gigantic shitpost it’s great. I love it. I love the idea.

R
And so going into you have a poem about eating ass as well and you have this A poem that is in the chat book or fuck it, where you are literally talking about the fact that you don’t edit your work, which you mentioned earlier in this interview, and so on ask you, is there something about this your process for writing that you think would surprise people that have that are reading your works?

L
I think the fact that I don’t like I just don’t edit. That is. Maybe that’s surprising. Like it’s not surprising for me, but I’m the one writing this shit. So I don’t, you know? But yeah, I don’t edit. I don’t, it’s not. It’s not supposed to be grammatically correct. Or fucking. You know, I don’t give a shit about meter and rhyme. And does it be like, none of that? I don’t give a fuck. I don’t care. Like does it say something? Is it saying something to me? Do I feel like, you know, do I feel like I took a really good shit after I wrote this poem. Like, do I feel relieved? If I don’t, something’s wrong, and I throw the fuck out. You know, like, Okay, this is shit. Oh, I can’t tell you about like, process, right? So for me, if I’m sitting down and intentionally writing, which is very rare, like, Okay, I made some time I’m gonna sit down and write. Then, the first for me is like I have to it has to be really late at night. Like the whole house has to be quiet. Brains have to be asleep, like, I need that. silence for my brain itself to be silent, and something will always come up some shit always comes up. So for me, like I have this, like mantra, that’s, you know, you’re not writing a story, you’re capturing a moment. And for me, what I try and do is like, Okay, I’ve got this memory, or this shit happened the other day. Where’s the moment of impact? Right? So like, what’s the, what’s the fireball? Moment? Like? What’s the moment that makes you laugh? What’s the moment that you know, makes you like, disgusted? If I’m intending to do that, like, where is it? So what I think about when I’m writing these things, if I’m writing intentionally is alright, like, find that moment of impact and world build around that moment, right. which I assume is probably pretty similar to what novelists are doing. But I just don’t carry it on for 100 Plus pages, like that’s mind blowing to me. I don’t know how they do that, like mad props to the novelist out there. For real man, I respect your hustle. I can’t do it myself. Yeah, I try and like I sit through that memory. And I find that moment of impact, like, okay, if I’m reading this thing about the chick that, you know, just on the train, like, it’s probably going to be about the moment her and I locked eyes and I just shrugged like, alright, you know, what, do you do this on the train, baby? It’s like, you had to be a lot because you piss for five straight minutes. Like, alright, cool. Fuck the MTA. I don’t care. You know, that’s that moment of impact of like, what my reaction is or the connection of humanity or whatever, you know? I know what when I know it, you know what I mean? It’s like, grabbing your lover’s ass. Like, okay, I know that muffin. That’s my, like, I grab the acid, that moment, like, there’s that muffin. That’s mine. And I just won’t build around it. I don’t know if that’s normal for people. But that’s just the way my brain works, I guess.

R
Yeah. When that moment that clicks for you that that feels right for the way you want to write and has the most significant impact. I think that a lot of people do draw from those moments in their lives, even if they’re not always aware of it, right? of drawing from moments have big impacts, and in their minds, even if it’s not the same massive in the scale of you know, their entire life just in these brief moments, something that kind of rises above the normalcy of the day.

L
For sure, yeah. Excuse me. I was trying to think about like one of the poems I don’t remember it’s a really old column that’s kind of where I came up with this find the moment of impact and build a world build around it because I started writing a poem pretty intentionally and it was like this like it sucks. Like this is a piece of shit poem and I’m because I’m not writing a poem. I’m writing a story at this point, getting you back up the day like nobody gives a shit about that. Where’s the moment of impact and that’s where that set in for me. Like okay, well that’s that’s where I’m writing. And I’m coming out far less shitty.

R
So for you, you don’t like all this extra stuff around the ears want to be hit with it? Straight to the point. Feel impacted? Give it to me. Right No You know yourself as well as when you’re Yeah. When you’re reading other stuff? Is that also what you look for?

L
Absolutely. You know, I don’t, I don’t want to read it, but like, a fucking epic, right? But you know, it’s not just in reading to like in a conversation you ever talk to somebody and I’m probably one of these people you know very like brevity is not my strong suit, you know?

R
Like those people these people

L
okay cool and we’re in good company but these people like, I don’t know, I feel like I’m pretty straight to the point we’ll get to it but like, I’ve got a couple of friends where like, I, I feel my head doing the lift like okay, when Where’s the fucking point? Like, I got shit to do? Tell me the fucking what’s the point of this story? Like, I don’t like it in conversation. I don’t like it in books. I don’t like it in movies. I’m like, Okay, this is like, get like, come to the point. Where is it? Where is it? What do you like, you know, like, what are you trying to tell me here. So I don’t want to stick around with like a lot of pastoral imagery or flowers or, you know, whatever. touchy feely shit. That’s why I really love the cow skis work. He just wrote the way that he wrote, he wrote it. Like he had the balls to write it, although he did have a tiny bit of self preservation, here and there, but overall law. And he just didn’t give a fuck, and I respect the hell out of that. Because giving a fuck takes a lot of energy. And I don’t have a lot of that I’m sure. Maybe he didn’t have a lot of that after binge drinking and, like, vomiting and everything. You know, I don’t know. But yeah, like, I don’t have that energy to waste reading shit like that, or writing shit like that, or talking to people who want to do this to my poor brain?

R
So would you say that your greatest inspiration from people that you’ve read would be passed to you? Or is it somebody else in your life? For starting poetry or even for team coaches, just your experiences inspire you? Or what would you say is like, you know, greatest inspiration.

L
You know, I started writing poetry before I ever read any. Like, I just, you know, I’ve been writing since I was really little. And it started out with the, like retelling like childhood fables or anything like that I vividly remember like doing a picture book, because staple picture book of like the purchase of the pea when I was really young, like maybe first or second grade, somewhere around there, but it just kind of evolved into you know, I always loved English class. And so like, I would write these little stupid short stories. And then I got into poetry because it was just, like, it was easier, I suppose about, like, I don’t know, if I was just lazy or didn’t have time. So it just evolved into that. Um, and like, I was still writing short stories, but it just took too much time. And then I remember like, the first poetry book I got was my Angelou book of poems. And I just remember like, she’s tattooed on my right, my right forearm and like, I love her work. Because it’s still very real. But not you know, not, it’s done beautifully. I mean, there’s a lot of beauty and dignity there. She, I think her and Lorraine Hansberry go hand in hand, or that there’s this really should experience that you don’t deny it being shit, but you still are able to find dignity in the middle of it. And I think there’s a lot to be said for that. It gets really important. I think, you know, rain and Maya Angelou, Toni Morrison too, are probably like, some of the three most important female writers of the century. And you know, you’ve got Toni Morrison doing novels and Lorraine Hansberry doing plays and Maya doing autobiography, many, many of them and, you know, incredible works of art. And she’s an artist, and she drew from her life. So I guess like, if I have to say like, if there’s an inspiration for a poet, specifically, it will probably be her. Because of how very personal she got and like, not talking about, like, just personal, like her eternal experience, but also like, her embodied experience with a very fucked up world around her. And she’s not she’s not pulling any punches in that, but she’s also not sinking to my level, which is like, well, you know, we’re gonna talk about About this and shit, you know, and Lorraine Hansberry does the same thing. With you know, think about like A Raisin in the Sun, we’re talking about South Side, Chicago, in the 60s, very segregated, and death and money and segregation and moving into a white neighborhood at the time what that means. And there’s this immense amount of like, there’s immense amount of dignity and nuance, I guess, that situation and she still tries to find the beauty in this shit. Where, you know, flipside of that Toni Morrison, she’s like, I’m going to show you the shit. You know, like, here it is, I don’t know, if you’ve ever read like, sullo you know, where one of the main characters is talking about, you know, having to grease up her finger to unconsummated her baby, you know. And I, I respect the shit out of that too. Like, she’s giving it to you the way that it is. And it’s a work of fiction, but like, it’s ugly art and ugly art is so important, you know? Because I think in a sense, it becomes more valuable, at least to me, it becomes more valuable. Because these people have the the testicular fortitude to just be like, This is it. And that’s why like I admire because key to this is that you’re not getting it like what you see is what you get, you know, at trying to be like Hunter Thompson’s and I’m looking at the tattoos on my arm and I’ve got my Angelou tattoo there. I’ve got Hunter Thompson tattooed there. I’ve got like, should I look Nabokov and Daniel Quinn like these are our pre big writers to me for one reason or another. Hunter Thompson is huge for me. He’s another one that just fuckin told it like it is he dances his demons if they want and to have to have I think, you know, I don’t know if it’s courage or stupidity or just not giving a fuck to dance with your devils and be like, yeah, they want and this is my life, you know? And then when I’m done, I’m going to drink a bottle of whiskey smoke bucket calm all and blow my head off. You know, my typewriter. I think that’s there’s a certain type of some really fucked up I think there’s a certain type of integrity to that, you know? It’s my life and and I live it the way that I talk you want and right under like a portrait of Hunter Thompson. I have a portrait that Ralph Steadman did with him and Ralph Steadman, just like as a really ugly inkblot artist, that I fucking love his work. And it’s supposed to kind of capture this duality of him, like, everything looks good on the surface when he’s his fucking monster inside. And I, I like it. Like I really respect it. Really? You know, I admire that. Because I don’t even think that I could go that far. You know, there’s a point where I feel like yeah, I can dance with my bucket trauma and my crazy bullshit. But there’s a point where self preservation kicks in, like, I got processes, so I can live in every day because I don’t do any drugs. I got a nicotine and coffee. A lot of coffee. But, but yeah, I guess like, those are my, my inspirations trying to get like other human beings on the face of the planet, but I really respect the shit out of like, Oh, I’m going to pick up their book. Again, when is he something that’s written out this new tribal life thing? He’s the guy that wrote Ishmael and I really liked his vision, because kind of anthropological view. Nabokov, I just, you know, my favorite book is probably Lita firts. For its own reasons, you know, like, I identify very much with Lolita with doors a lot. But I think there’s this kind of incredible beauty about the way Nabokov writes like fuck, I wish I could write that way. And then Miller he was very close to being tattooed on me you know, like the opening of Tropic of Cancer I think it is where he’s like pulling lice out of his roommates armpits that can doesn’t get any more real than that or I remember like the moment I fell in love with him it’s same book really like a few pages later and he’s talking like he’s writing this letter talking to this woman telling you and he’s like, you know, I’m, I’m I’m going to fuck you like I’m going to fuck you and after me you’re going to be able to take out and wild horses like I’m Wanna make your own? Like, I’m gonna make your ovaries incandescent, and like God damn, that is fucking amazing. I think maybe I was like 16 When I read that, and just fell in love, like, think about that, like, your ovaries being incandescent CADCAM like he lit that puts the off is what I like to be able to describe it is that I was just smitten.

R
So for you all these I think it’s a common theme amongst all these different writers and artists and poets and everything is that they have this certain unforgiving realism to what they do.

L
Yeah, and, and in a way like, I mean, more so with the others. To Tamsin Koski and Morrison and like an artist that I love the painters Francis Bacon, almost Fuck man, like, I’m in love with this man. And his work, but it’s grotesque. It’s really grotesque. And, like, what I love is, is that this is what’s real, right? Like, I’m not going to sugarcoat it for you. Just fucking deal with it. I mean, life sucks. Buy a helmet. What else do you have to do? All right. I think that the courage to be able to just tell it like it is because we are so insulated. You know, we were told that look, we always have to be polite in this situation. Oh, you don’t say the thing to like, Do I look fat in this dress? Oh, no, you look right. You okay, well, I can see your cellulite. That’s bad, but maybe you don’t want that look. But like, there’s this we? We trade in Little White Lies, right? Yeah. All day every day. Oh, you look fine. I feel good. How you doing on great, you know, wear this mask. And these specific artists Toni Morrison, Hunter Thompson Koski Francis Bacon. They’re like, fuck that mask, and fucking for wearing it. And here’s what I’m going through. Like, look at it. I’m human deal with it. You know, there’s another Twitter writer, who I really described like this. Scott was Gak. He’s like it to like, his stuff is so gritty. And so human. Like, I’m fucking human. Look at it. Here’s the ugly shit of human existence. Like, deal with it. HLR is like that to God. I just love her. She’s one of the most amazing writers that I found on twitter to date. But all of them have this, this raw realism to them. And I think that’s what’s compelling, right? Like, we live in such a fucked up dumb ass world. That this especially now maybe an art like our generation, that things just the pimple has come to a head, you know, the mean, or the oil or whatever you want to call it, the Herpe has arisen. And like it’s time to fucking Lance the boil, but everybody’s too afraid of it. But we’ve got some really incredible artists and writers out there that are saying, Alright, let’s let’s do this shit. I’m gonna pop this fucking oil and let the placebo you’re just gonna have to deal with the consequences and clean it up. Yeah, um, and I think that’s really fucking cool. You know, like, it’s really cool. It’s admirable, and it’s fun. And I think that that capturing the human condition and all its shittiness is what is compelling. Nobody wants to like We’re not kids anymore and anyone with a not reading fucking fairy tales, although I do love Harry Potter with a vengeance and the Mortal Instruments and I need that like I will read those things when I feel so shitty that I need to be reminded there is something good in the world right? But that’s not what I want to read the most and what compels me what characters my intention? Is that the shittiness of the human condition because it’s like well, I’m not alone I guess I’m feeling like a piece of shit you know that’s great.

R
Yeah. Hey, there’s somebody else is also in you know, in dark fill in dark with me and their demons may be different than mine. But recognizing in there’s another person struggling with their demons too. And we’re not alone in our struggle to deal with the fact that life doesn’t actually isn’t all rainbows, chocolate candy, and fun times. It’s a lot of Yeah, dirt, grime, blood, sweat, tears, sadness. And everything else.

L
For sure, there’s a quote. I can’t remember who that this guy’s name. I think he was the past editor or maybe la quarterly. I can’t fucking remember it’s in a Bill Cosby documentary. He said the most wonderful thing about because he’s writing and I it just tickles my tits, I guess. He said that he liked the Koski works so much because because he was committed to the deep Disneyfication of the mind. Right? That, you know, everything is is made to be so great, so wonderful and blah, blah, blah. But really what you have is a four fingered soul as bastard. And nobody wants to talk about the reality of that. And, and, you know, we need, we need that, that Disney shit taken from our head. You know, it’s like I said, it’s great for kids, not for us, not for adults. So yeah, like, maybe, maybe that’s what I like about these writers, the desertification of the mind.

R
I think that’s a wonderful phrase. And I think that you also with your work, perhaps you don’t necessarily go to, as you mentioned, as dark place as some of their work to do. But I do think that you also have sort of demystification of the mind as well in the way that you are willing to kind of lay these things bare in your poetry. And that’s part of what we really appreciate and enjoy about it here. cinnabar moth that’s part of why I was chosen for the Lord and excellence and poetry. And we appreciate you I know, you said, Thank you, but thank you for sharing your work for us to be able to have the opportunity to experience it, because he could have chosen not to, but you said fucking just like the title of your chapter.

L
Yeah. Yeah, why not? Let’s do this thing.

R
And so, before we wrap up, I wanted to ask you, if you could suggest one input that you’d like to let people know about out there? Is there anyone that you suggest, perhaps to our listeners,

L
share that one? That’s hard? You know, I do this while I was over the summer now, I’m reading people’s chat books, like other indie poets. You know, I like my first knee jerk reaction is always gonna be HLR she’s just fuck me, man. Like she’s incredible. Her. Her chapbook history was the first one I bought.

R
I’m sorry, a little bit far from the mic, so I can’t hear you that well.

L
How can you hear me now? Oh, yeah. Oh, okay. So like, um, it’s really hard to choose one. And like my knee jerk reaction would be to do HLR because she’s just, I think one of the most talented ra writers on Twitter right now, history of present complaint is what it was the first Twitter chat book that I bought over the summer. It is my favorite. I’ve got so many like notes in the margin from it. It’s God, it’s breathtaking. It’s something that I really want to read over and over again. And aside from her, like, and I don’t know if like, the dirty south, the dirty side of Twitter meaning like Twitter, meaning my side with all the fucked up weird shit, like, knows about another woman. Her name’s Taylor bias. And she did a chapbook Louise chapter this summer I think was variant. I want to say variant lit. I could be wrong. Yeah, variant led called Blood warm. And God Damn, that’s another one. I’ve got tons of notes in the in the margins and stuff. And there’s this incredible poem. I think it’s something like something of my morning tea, how I take my morning tea, and it’s a holy shipment. It’s like a poem hidden within a poem. Which reminds me of James Scott’s domination in the art of resistance where he’s talking about with your hidden transcript right code switching. Like I when I saw that it was like, Holy fuck, or is this what you’re doing? And she’s like, Oh, my God, you got it. Like, oh my god. I can’t even handle this right now. I need to go to the you get those like those two women HLR and Taylor bias. Hands down, I think the best writers that I’ve encountered on Twitter yet. Sorry, guys, it’s the ladies right now.

R
Women have women have a lot of wonderful art writers and I miss you amongst them from our opinions. And we thank you for thank you for giving these two suggestions. I will be sure for those of us for those of you listening, we will be making sure to include the links to their information along with the stuff for John here. Later, John. So I want to I want to thank you for talking with me today and for being on the writers triangle. I think that It’s been wonderful, being able to get to know you better and get to understand the person and get to know the person behind the wonderful work. And what her poems that you shared with us. And gratulations again on being the winner for the cinnabar moth literary collections, excellence and poetry award. And can you tell us where we can find you on social media? website all that?

L
Yeah, the website is WW poems that suck that calm and I’m on Twitter not a ton right now just because beginning of the semester, but it’s at suck as poetry. Yeah, I think that’s pretty much where you can find me all the time. Come stalk me. I like stalkers, especially the perverted ones. That’s great.

R
So thank you for sharing and for all of our listeners, be sure to visit cinnabar moth Dakar Wars era Mr. cinnabar moth literary collections.com and check out the transcripts. We’ll have the social media links, and we like to thank you all for listening for today is wonderful having all of you and Goodbye bye