Episode 29: Versatility in Publishing
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Hello, my beautiful cinnabar moths or any kind of math you want to be, welcome to the writers triangle. And this week, we’re going to be talking about something a little heavy and a little bit serious. But I want y’all to know that I am okay. The reason I say that is we’re going to be talking a little bit about my past and how that my past and my identity and how that’s led to my understanding of versatility. And why I believe that without versatility, I can’t succeed. So I entered the foster system for the very first time like entered went into an orphanage, the called the Children’s Shelter in Santa Clara County when I was about four months old for the first time, and I was in and out of foster care until I emancipated at age 16. And what that taught me was that you can be somewhere for a day, or you can live somewhere for six months, or you can live anywhere from five minutes to 10 years, you can live somewhere. And I think kids that grew up in a military family kind of experienced the same thing, where you can just wake up one day, and that’s moving day, or you can get, you know, that kind of short notice. Or you can get notice that somebody in your life that you’re really close to his leaving that day with, and you have no forewarning. So that taught me that taught me how to just kind of roll with the punches and not expect permanence and not get too attached to things. Because you never know when that thing that certain thing is going to is going to leave. And how that kind of plays out in publishing is that I can fall in love with a book, and I can fall in love with an author. And we can be so close to signing the deal. And I can send the contract. And they say, Okay, give me two weeks. And in that two weeks, they use that contract to shop around for an agent or a better deal. And come back with I’ve gotten a better deal. And I think some people would feel really angry. And at first I felt kind of hurt because I feel like well, that was the set. To me, that’s deceitful to not say, Hey, I’m talking with other people too. I wish that an auditor would just tell me, Hey, I don’t think I’m gonna go with you. But you seem really cool. And I’d like to use your off your offer to leverage an agent or leverage another publishing house, because they’re just sitting on my book, and they’re not doing anything with it. I would prefer that than had me go through all of the work that it takes to get to the point where I make a deal. It’s a lot of reading, and a lot of communication. And most, most authors don’t do that. But for me is the very much the experience of being a foster kid. And being a foster kid. They put you in nice shiny clothes, like your best little outfit. And they taught you down into the circle. And there’s a family there. And there’s a lineup of you and four other kids. And they have one on one first they look you over and they decide which one’s the cutest. And then they have one on one conversations with each of you to see if they like your personality asking you about your hobbies and all of these things. And then they have weekend overnights, the trial run where you go home with them for a weekend. And it might be you and three other kids that they’re doing weekends with over the course of a month. And then they do the one week trial. And then they do the one month trial. And then at about the three months. Either the court rips you out of their house and puts you back into your home, or you stay with them for about a year before they decide that whatever topic you have doesn’t fit their family is usually what happens in the foster care system. And reflecting on that isn’t to make people feel sad or sorry for me reflecting on that is I see it as these authors have every right to do that. But now it’s switching back into the mode where I won’t get attached. I won’t fall in love. And I won’t piner wait. Because for me as a foster kid, if I go back into that space, I really didn’t care about any of these families. I knew the power of the court. I understood that my biological family could at any point in time any biological member of my biological family could at any time. Once they were above the age of 18 petitioned the court for custody of me
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and I kind of look at books the same way As in this was why I didn’t become a foster parent is what I did. I fostered one child. And what I learned was that you’ll never have any say over that child truly, unless you adopt them, and you can’t adopt them without the parents permission. And if the biological family chooses to not give permission, then you can’t ever be adopted. So I’m looking at the books as potential foster kids, and I’m looking at the books as being potential foster kids that I’m looking to adopt. And having that first of all mindset that these are, these are just, this is just the foster process. This is not a permanent process, when authors pull them and go with a different author, or when authors pull them and go with an agent. And then they’re still querying, I feel like, okay, so you chose to go back to the Children’s Shelter, as you put your book back in the Children’s Shelter. And you’re out there, again, doing that same dance, where you’re trotting it out, putting it in its best clothes and trying it out for potential foster parents, because you didn’t think I’d be a fit parent for your book. And that’s completely cool that like, seriously, that is completely okay. But that’s my understanding of versatility when it comes to picking out books because I really have to be in that space of, I’m a potential foster parent who’s looking to adopt a child and do an open adoption, where the author knows everything about what I’m doing with their child, but really doesn’t have the final say, and it’s okay, if an author decides that I’m not the person they want to adopt their book. And that versatility and thinking allows me to not become bitter, and not become jaded and not become angry. And that’s a really important part of the process, not becoming jaded. Because being a publisher, I was, when I came into publishing, I was really naive. And I didn’t think and it hasn’t worked, we’re coming up. It’s been a little over a year. So as I say, we’re coming up on our one year anniversary, but it’s been a little bit over a year. And y’all know I’m bad with dates. And in the past year, what I’ve learned is that I’m lucky in that all of the authors we work with are amazing, beautiful human beings. But that not all authors are amazing, beautiful human beings, just like all human beings are not amazing and beautiful, through my lens of what amazing and beautiful is. So being first of all, and saying, you know, I get my role, and I get my place, and I get my lane. And understanding what that lane is, for me, has really been helpful. And drawing on my past has really been helpful. Another part of my past that I draw on and publishing and this is really controversial. And I don’t think that it should be. But it’s that I don’t print racial slurs, I don’t buy books that have racial slurs on them, and I do not print them. And I do have a couple of books where I post those slurs against sexuality, which I regret, I deeply, deeply regret it. So I am black, indigenous, Jewish, and French. And as a black indigenous person of color. I don’t want to read those words. I just don’t want to read them. Growing up in the foster care system. I laughed at a lot our racist jokes that were directed at my racial demographic and my racial background. And for a lot of years, I tolerated it. And I went along with it. And sometimes I’m not proud to say I supported it. And even though the jokes were aimed at me, I should have said no, that’s not funny. I shouldn’t have laughed, and I stopped laughing at age 12. And that was so when I was 10, the movie roots came out. And a lot of new racial slurs, slurs entered the lexicon because of roots. And I will never forgive him for that. The author of roots, I don’t even speak his name. Because he did not tell
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a story in a way that uplifted and supported the black community. He could have told that story so differently, with just a little bit more care. And I’m not saying don’t talk about the atrocities. But when I was 12 I got to meet um, Actually, when I was I didn’t get to meet my biological the black half of my biological family, and really get to know them on a personal level until I was about 14 years old. And between 13 and 14, and when I heard the story, my grandmother story of her life and her father’s life, and her mother’s life, I had so much pride in what my grandfather had to overcome to survive slavery, my great grandfather, to survive it. And I wish the best story had been told the perseverance and strength, the mental strength, the emotional strength and the physical strength that it takes to overcome that type of trial. So for me, normalizing racial slurs is not something I’m I’m versatile on. And versatility does play a role in this because changing my position, as I know, better, I do better as my answer with them. And you know, better do better, and lots of other people have said, and for me, I just don’t understand what the story of a racial slur tells, I don’t understand what that adds to lexicon of our thinking. And I think it normalizes racism. And if you’ve never been called a racial slur, you don’t know what it’s like. And therefore, in my opinion, you can’t write it. Because you can only write it from the position of power. The person saying it, you can’t write it. Even if you’ve witnessed how it lands. You don’t know the internal experience of learning about racism, and everything that it means and how it impacts the person. So for me, there’s a thing there’s a joke that goes around colored people’s time. CPT, color, people’s time is a racist term that says all people of color are late. That bothers me to this day, that bothers me. And looking at slurs, proving that I’m not any of the slurs that they call any of my identities. Like as a black woman, am I an angry black woman? Am I an angry late lazy black woman? No, I’m not. And angry, lazy and late. Black doesn’t need to be attached to that you can be angry, lazy and late, no matter who you are. And anybody can be late, accidentally. So the versatility to understand how people understand lateness and on time and what all of those things mean. I’ve had to have the mindset and publishing what does it mean to be on time as a publisher? And what does it mean, to put myself out there as a predominantly black girl and publishing house, which I am, and which we are, which cinnabar moth is, and the majority of the people, everyone who works with us is either disabled neurodivergent part of the LGBTQ i plus community, or a person of color? And looking at all of that, I think, Okay, why would and that’s where the versatility comes in. Why would I say no racial slurs, but then allow slurs against intelligence, slurs against mental health, slurs against disability, throws against sexual orientation, or gender identity be printed in any of the books I published? Why would I allow that pain to be put forth? And I quickly came to the answer, I won’t. And to me, that’s versatility and thinking, and looking at my own identity. Why would I accept slurs against part of my identity, but not against other parts of my identity? Aren’t they equally as hurtful? And I think, you know what? Yeah, they are. Because when I was growing up, I remember coming out to my mother as being a lesbian. And my mother put me into conversion therapy, not religious conversion therapy, and it was nothing severe, not as severe as what other people went through.
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But going to a therapist every week and having to validate my sexual choices and my sexual orientation did affect me, and now I identify as a gender and I’m asexual, and I’m panromantic and my mother wouldn’t understand any of those things and wasn’t able to and when I would I remember I went to my mother’s house once and I was wearing a t shirt that said Boy across it. And my mother grabbed my my breasts and said, Oh, yeah, you’re a boy. And I just thought, Huh, that’s weird. And I don’t want anybody everybody who has who is part of the LGBTQ i plus community has those moments in their life where somebody tried to invalidate their identity, or invalidate their choices. And why would I have them in their fun leisure time, read a book that includes those slurs, because there’s so many ways that you can make a villain villainous, and make them a horrible person, and scum of the earth without making them racist. So part of my versatility and success is challenging my authors to be more versatile in their thinking, and be more creative in their thinking, and not go the easy, cheap way out of saying somebody’s racist, because the racial slur is right there in your face. It’s the micro aggressions on the personal level, that can really take a person out of their body and can be so much more shocking. Like when I was, and I’ll give you an example, when I was a therapist, I had a client who brought five children to a 30 minute therapy session where I was only working with one of their children. And I was working with one of their children at a discounted rate. And I was teaching that child to overcome a learning disability. And I’ve been working with the child for about six months, and I had taught the child how to do a lot of things that they didn’t know how to do. And she said, You know, I’ve been wondering something, and we’re talking about the child. So I was just in a cool, uneven space. And I was like, Oh, what’s that thinking? They’re going to ask something about the child. And I’ve been wondering, what are you? And I was like, What do you mean, I’m, I know, I’m doing speech therapy. But I’m a therapist. I know, I’m doing disability therapy. But I, I just use the term therapist as a crutch as a catch all. And you said no, I mean, what are you? Where do you Where does your family come from? And I was like, Kansas, and Alabama. And she was like, no, but where do they really come from? And I was like, Kansas, and Alabama. And she was like, before them? What do you mean before them, because as far back as I can trace my ancestry. It’s Kansas and Alabama. Now, I can trace my ancestry further back than that, but I didn’t feel like I owe this person anything. And I have been working with their child for a discounted rate. And that moment still sticks with me. And it messed me up. And I had to get right, I had 30 minutes in between them leaving, and the next client coming in to get right with the world. And that’s what a racial slur does. And that’s what a microaggression does. And that’s why I don’t print slurs. So with versatility and succeeding, I’m challenging my authors don’t write racial slurs, because that conversation was way more hurtful than if she had just called me a slur. A slur people, if someone calls me a stir, I get over that so fast these days, and keep on tracking. If I read it in a book, I get passed. Why are you writing this? And who are you to write this? What gives you the right to make me read this? Like Bill Burr has this great comedy set, where he says, don’t say the N word to me, because now I’m thinking it. Don’t say that to I don’t want to think that word. Don’t just say it, because you’ve just said it. So just say it. Don’t make me responsible for it. And I go even further. Don’t say it. Don’t infer it. There’s lots of different ways to write about it. Without doing that, and write about it in a way that it’s wrong. Write about it in a way that educates people who would do those types of things,
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and have it elevate the conversation. That’s my point. And you can disagree with me and you can debate about it on Twitter, or you can scroll back through our Twitter feed when we were debating this topic back in August and see my position on it. But I guarantee that this is something I won’t change. I’m never going to change my position on not ever and I’ve talked with other people of color and Some people of color use racial slurs as a way of reclaiming the word. I use slurs against gender. So I’m not saying that I’m perfect. And I do print curse words that are gender based, that can be seen by some as gender slurs. So I’m not perfect in this. And I’m not saying I’m better than anyone, I’m saying that I’m the publisher. And I get to decide. And that’s part of coming into my own as a publisher and saying, I have a right to say what I will and won’t publish. And you have the same right to stay who you will and won’t publish with anything, it goes both ways on that. Another way that I have found that versatility has helped me be successful is learning that people will promise you things that they won’t deliver on, and until the contract is signed, it’s not real, until you have a signed contract. I don’t count on it. And the same goes for guests for the podcast, sometimes guests fall through. And we don’t have all of the interviews that we want to have and rethinking about, Do I want to keep going through that process? Of having people say, Yes, I promise I’ll be interviewed. Beyond our authors who when their books come out, if they don’t do the interview, I do the interview for them, I let Ross to interview me in their stead. And beyond that, do I want to rely on anybody in that regard? And I think the answer is heading quickly towards No. And that’s because I find that people have the right to say no. But I also have the right to determine how much NO is going to affect my business. And to be clear, this is a business and my podcast is also a business and having episodes up and running and having episodes on time and having a guest fall through is really quite devastating to the schedule. Having because I booked the interviews really fun advance in hopes of not having it affect the schedule. But I am busy, I do have other things going on in my life besides work, at least I hope to. And part of that is, is knowing what each podcast was going to be. And if it’s going to be an interview, then that’s a podcast, I don’t have to record because roster does the interview. And if the person is going to cancel the interview, like two and three cancellations, or take three months to get back to me on a date, I feel like it’s hurtful to then take that opportunity away from someone. So would it be better to just not offer the opportunity. And that’s versatility and thinking and looking at looking at it from someone else’s perspective. And not wanting to hurt people not wanting to cause harm, and not wanting to reject people and limit rejection, right and have it be more positive and have it be more collegial and have good relationships and maintain good relationships with the other presses and the other magazines and the other podcasts that I work with.
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And for me, part of maintaining that good relationship is not having to reject them. And part of not having to reject them is pay attention to what they’re saying about their time demands and paying attention to what they’re saying about their schedule. And from my perspective, if you know, I think when someone hears like, Hey, do you want to be interviewed? They’re like, yes, absolutely. I want to be interviewed. And I think that that is honest and true. But then can you do it in less timeframe, I think becomes a little trickier and becomes a little bit more difficult. And I think with our authors, we have like eight or nine months running, start to get the interview done. And even then sometimes it’s a struggle. And I think for other publications, that they’re just as busy as I am trying to get everything, everything that they do to promote their authors to promote their business and to promote their publications, right. So keep saying right, your locks and like, believe me. I agree with me. I’m right on this. I think I feel very strongly that I am. And so I guess versatility for me, comes down to versatility and thinking and the reason that I did this podcast episode knowing that it was going to be calm traverse y’all. And knowing that it’s what makes me sad, by the way, whether or not to print a racial slur that should not be controversial in my mind, whether or not to deliberately hurt people. And the books that I publish to me should not be controversial that I don’t want to hurt people. And I do write books, I do write, I do publish books that are traumatizing and difficult to read. So I’m not saying I don’t write any books that hurt people, or don’t publish any books that hurt people, I just say, I’ve written a couple of stories that I know, are quite painful, and are going to be difficult to read. But they don’t attack anyone’s identity. Because we cannot help our identity. And for those who feel like they can help their identity, I think right on cool for you, I can’t. And I think in addition to identity, understanding my identity a little bit more and understanding what I’m protecting, in terms of my own spirit, and my own energy, I hope helps people to understand a bit more, because I have hurt people by saying, you don’t belong to this group. And so writing a slur about this group is completely and wholly inappropriate. And also telling people you know, there are better ways to write a villain than to say they’re racist, and therefore they’re villainous. And also telling people, Hey, you can’t have that identity, slur. And there that was very casually used. And it’s been upsetting to them. And I’ve had authors say, Well, if I can’t have these slurs, then I won’t publish with you. And I think, right on, I’m not the publisher for you. So I hope that this helps potential authors that want to submit to us think about whether or not they want to submit to us and look at their own writing. Because I’m not telling anyone at all what to write, I’m telling you what I’ll publish. And those are two very, very different things. And to be clear, when I talk with people about writing these types of things, and I’m asking them to be more versatile and creative in their thinking, from my perspective, it’s just that it’s from my perspective, because no group is a monolith. And as I said, people in my group, all of the groups identify as everyone who has this identity search in mind. Some of them use slurs, and some of them don’t, some agree with me, some don’t. So I’m not saying that I speak for all people that identify the way that I do. I’m speaking for me, and I’m speaking for the cinnabar moth team. And as a team as a whole, we sat down and thought about this. And we regret publishing the slurs that we did publish, and we decided we’re not going to do that anymore.
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And that’s our right. And that’s okay. And if you want to write those things, you know, there are plenty of publishers who don’t have that point of view. And I’m not saying that they’re right or wrong. I’m just saying they’re not us. And when it comes to interviews, if you’re hoping to be on the writers triangle podcast, if you do not have an absolute 100% Sure, at a certain date in mind that you could be interviewed and recorded. I’m not going to be sending out invitations anymore. That’s part of my versatility and my growing is that I want to be respectful of other people’s point of view. And I don’t want them to feel pressured. Because we have a good relationship thinking, Oh, well, I can’t say no to this offer. Because this person is being generous, or because of my relationship with this person. Just I think that there has to be room for the know. And like, I think sometimes when you offer people things, inadvertently, at least for me, I feel like when I offer people things, specifically interviews, I feel like I’m inadvertently taking away their ability to give the No. And so they say yes, and then they think about it, and they’re like, Ooh, I don’t really want to do that after all. And that’s okay. So, part of my versatility is growing and thinking about what I’m asking people for and asking of people and learning and changing and evolving and being versatile and how I approach the business. And yeah, so that’s those are my thoughts on versatility and, and all of that and thank you so much for listening to this week’s podcast. I appreciate each and every one of our beautiful cinnabar moth are any kind of moth Do you want to be and you can even be a butterfly but I’m not Mariah Carey and I’m not trying to steal her thing so I’ll talk to you next week and I hope this podcast wasn’t too heavy bye bye bye