Episode 33: Leia John Interview

Listen to our monster any kind of math you’d like to be welcome to the writers triangles and Bibles podcast but all things publishing and me here at Les Adan, our writer residence, or cinnabar. Moth collections. How are you doing today?

L
I’m doing okay, how about you?

R
I’m doing great. Thanks for asking. Thank you for being on. Yeah. So today we’re going to be talking about diversity and writing. And I was wondering, when did you first learn about the concept of diversity? And what does diversity and writing mean to you?

L
I mean, I think this is such an odd topic. I mean, I think like, the idea of diversity probably popped up, you know, 2020 12, or somewhere around there when I first started. You know, going back to college. Yeah, I think maybe that’s, I mean, this is stretching back. So that’s probably the first time I ever recall. You know, really hearing it used anyway. As far as like, it’s such a I, you know, I have mixed feelings about this topic. I’m sure we’ll get to that. I think like, in theory, diversity and writing is trying to capture you know, I think it’s I can’t remember if it’s Emily Townes, or Tracy West, these two really great womanist ethicists that talk about, you know, truth coming from a multiplicity of voices. So when I think about like diversity, I think about that about truth coming from a multiplicity of voices from different social positions from different genders from different ethnicities, I don’t like saying race or you know, whatever. I think that’s constructed. But yeah, I guess I guess that’s it. I mean, I think if we’re talking about diversity and writing, then I would think about that about trying to find the truth in a multiplicity of voices.

R
Okay, so for you, it’s a matter of having as many voices from as many different backgrounds express themselves openly.

L
For sure, and I do think like, I think like we need to, in this instance, I think in a lot of instances, socially speaking, that we we can no longer really be talking about equality, we need to talk about equanimity. So or if we want to say it in like layman’s terms, rebalancing the fulcrum, so there’s just in writing, in music, in entertainment as a whole in politics in every facet of life, you know, the, the, the voice that has held space for the longest been a white, straight, sis, hetero, you know, male, often in an upper class. So if we’re talking about diversity, and truly being diverse and truly being equanimity, this and that, then it’s about uplifting voices that are traditionally marginalized.

R
That’s, that makes sense to me, the concept of, oh, you can’t just treat people just treat people equally is is great. But we also need to spend time supporting the voices that hadn’t gotten support before, and supporting the people that haven’t gotten support before.

L
For sure, in telling the stories that have historically not been given the space to be told. And I think it’s really important that, you know, I’ve noticed this, what’s happening in some of the big five publishing is that they’re saying, Oh, well, we’re talking about, we want more diversity in voices, but it’s still the same, like, form story or form letter that we’re getting, it just happens to be coming from a black voice or an Asian voice or, you know, but it’s still the same story. Do you don’t I mean, I don’t know.

R
They they follow a very certain formula with the writing that ends up being it? It’s so templated, I guess, would be the way I would say it is for sure, and ends up feeling like it’s the same type of thing and doesn’t really feel as diverse as it could be, because it’s still the same general format for the store.

L
Well, yeah, and I think there’s a reason for that. I think the reason for that lies behind the fact that the that the target audience is going to be you know, white middle class women that want to reread the same Eat, Pray Love story over and over and over again, you know.

R
And so I want to I want to scale this back a little bit to talk about us a bit more specifically with writing and diversity. And do you consider yourself you talked about hearing voices from multiple different backgrounds? Do you consider yourself to be a part of that diversity and writing and that growth Diversity in writing. All right, and how do you see yourself contributing to diversity and writing?

L
I mean, I probably don’t see myself is being part of that kind of diversity and writing, mainly because I’m not talking about, you know, my own Arabic ethnicity, I’m not talking about Well, excuse me, a mixed European Arabic ethnicity. I’m not talking about stories from that very particular social location. So you’re not really getting any diversity in that part, I think, I think at least in my genre, which is, you know, dirty realism or transgressive fiction, and I’m really putting fiction in quotations. And we said this last interview, to fiction that, that there’s just not a lot of women writing in that genre. And I don’t know if that’s maybe because women have most women who have more class attack than I do. Or whatever, I don’t know. Or maybe they there’s more of them. You know, a gripper the need to feel more feminine? I don’t know. I think it’s, I’m so happy to see more female writers in this genre. But I think the downfall for us is that it’s always the same kind of evaluation, and we’re trying to be like, Ginsberg, or you know, in my case, so you’re just trying to be like, kowski. And it’s like, this is just how I write. But no, I wouldn’t say that I’m a maybe in that sense, you know, as a woman coming into dirty realism, or being a part of that genre. Maybe, maybe that’s adding to diversity, but I don’t, I don’t know if it’s supposed to be like, it could be tokenized I don’t know. But

R
so you kind of have mixed feelings about your whether or not you’re part of diversity and writing. For

L
you for sure. Like, I don’t think that I came into into publishing, I really want to be very specific with that. You know, because I’ve always written the way that I write. And I have different styles of writing. I have academic writing, I have editorial writing, I have my own poetry, my journaling styles, whatever. But I’ve always written the way that I wrote, right. And like shocker of shockers, I only came across because gave out three years ago, and I was like, Oh, cool. Somebody else that’s a scummy fuck like me. But but it’s not something that I looked at, you know, I guess I had been looking for that type of grit. You know, I was looking for God, what’s his name, Jim Carroll from The Basketball Diaries. And I’m like, this is still not enough for me. So when I finally did kind of go down the rabbit hole and find because because like, oh, great, but it’s still, you know, like, I, I grew up with Angelou. So, if anybody had been an influence on me, it would have been her. But I don’t know, I totally got off track chasing rabbits there. I’m so sorry. Yeah, I feel really. I don’t know, maybe ambivalent. If the knee jerk reaction for me is to say, No, I don’t think that I’m contributing any diversity, in part, you know, in the writing community. Like if I think about it, then sure, maybe just inherently by being a woman in this genre, it’s diverse. I don’t know. Think,

R
I think with the, you mentioned that it’s coming from different backgrounds, right. And so I just from from that definition of expanding the types of voices and the backgrounds, the voices that we’re hearing in writing in, in different genres, if you are from a group with a background, that’s not common in the writing, and in the genre, then wouldn’t that be contribution to diversity by virtue of the fact that you’re expanding the types of voices that are being spoken about? And the order

L
and yeah, but I mean, it could just be I mean, I don’t think that I, I’ve entered publishing with the intent to diversify it by any means, um, and also, like, I think this this word is definitely a buzzword, especially in academia, you know, and we’re seeing that more and like the cult, corporate environment. Oh, you know, we’re, we’re committed to diversity. Okay. Well, what do you mean by that? Genuine, because you still have a corporate dress code and in, in effect that is very classist and racist. Do you know an anti anti woman? And I think that kind of pops off mine because I just had to deal with that myself. Like. I think it’s a good aesthetic that a lot of people are trying to employ this idea of diversity, but I don’t think that I think when pushed to really work on diversity, they have no idea what the hell they’re talking about.

R
There’s a lot of cases of companies or groups So people who will be like, yeah, diversity is great and give a thumbs up in their public face. But then if you were to ask them, okay, what does that actually mean, though, that they wouldn’t be able to give a satisfying answer?

L
For sure. I remember a moment during my undergraduate degree, I was at a private, I was a little white trash person, you know, little guttersnipe going to this very rich kid, private, undergrad on scholarship. And one of my professors like, our campus has reached 15% diversity. And before I could stop myself, I was like, Oh, that’s really interesting. Is that because you’re counting all the janitors and cooks and cleaners that are all black? Or are we just talking about the student body? And the whole? The whole room was quiet and like, did I? Did I say something wrong? Um, okay, just made? Nevermind. Yeah, I think I think that’s a really hot buzzword. I think like, I think, you know, being woke and being into social justice and or peace and justice, or whatever you want to call it these days is a good aesthetic. But when when push comes to shove, it’s really a lot of verbiage containing the same old bullshit. But But trying to look progressive.

R
So following up on that with the movie a little bit more towards publishing, what do you think publishers and editors of literary magazines and people in that field in that area? can do to increase diversity in publishing?

L
Yeah, I think that’s a great question. I think that the only and please, please forgive me, I’m coming off of a heavy social ethics womanist semester. So my brain is right there, man. Like if you really want to talk about diversity, real diversity and publishing, then I think the priority needs to be given to historically marginalized voices. And we’re not just talking about historically marginalized, let’s talk about the marginalized, of the marginalized. I think that black women need to be held up. And their voices prioritized far more than most people that are getting into publishing right now, if we really want to talk about diversity. And we really want to talk about balancing the fulcrum, at least in the United States. That’s my frame of reference. My next critique, I guess, would be like, we really need to start priority prioritizing Palestinian voices. Because if you want to talk about the marginalized about of the marginalized, there we go. That is one way to drive diversity, especially in Super, hyper Christian, hyper Zionist American culture. But I think that will, I mean, if you want to go that far, I think that’s going to raise some eyebrows for sure. But if you want to stay, quote, unquote, safe, then let’s start prioritizing the voices of black and brown women and telling their stories, their specific stories from their specific context, not simply trying to put blackface on a white woman’s story and calling it diverse, if that makes sense.

R
It doesn’t make sense to me, it’s, it’s a matter of letting them actually write their stories rather than expecting them to fulfill the, like standard format for what a story is, quote, unquote, supposed to be to appeal to their usual audience. It’s a matter of being willing to break away from that standard form, and accept something that’s well written, but different from what they would normally do.

L
Yeah, for sure. And I think that takes a really concerted effort. And I think it takes a lot of spine because people are gonna get offended. Do you know? And I feel like it’s those voices that are like, oh, you know, I don’t understand why we need to be diverse. You know, it’s the same type of people who are like, Oh, affirmative. Affirmative action is a bad idea. I’m like, you’re kind of racist. Like,

R
this might be a low key thing or high key thing for you, but either way.

L
Yeah, for sure. Like,

R
okay. And so touching on that point that you just brought up about people talking about diversity and feeling like it’s somehow negative. As cinnabar moth we like to focus on diversity and talk about it and feel that it’s about raising, like you mentioned, all voices, aside from the mainstream point of view, to really have this expansion of experience and being able to enjoy and experience the points of views and the backgrounds of a bunch of different people, right. So what would you say to those who are arguing against diversity by claiming that somehow focusing on is sigh silencing the mainstream voices our point of view.

L
I like like my knee jerk reaction is to call them, you know, a piece of shit racist. Like, that’s, that’s my knee jerk reaction and maybe I should filter myself before or like when you find it, look 99.9% of the time the people that are arguing against quote unquote diversity, or at least what they think is diversity are white people, right? And I think, look, I try and be empathetic here. Change is difficult, right? Especially if it’s happening all at once. But, but like, white folks need to learn how to let go of have this kind of head. Not even kind of, it’s the, you know, the hegemonic power of whiteness, like, like, White needs to maintain the majority and everything and it’s just like, Okay, well, we’ve heard this story before. So if you’re arguing against diversity and allowing space and time and like creativity, to hear other other stories, besides the same old white thing over and over and over again, like, you might have a problem with some racism that you need to address and can I recommend a couple of books for you? You know, and what does it mean by like, silencing mainstream voices like these white you know, and I’m being very specific here White, sis, hetero male voices are, are probably always going to be what is normative and what is like, held up more you know, and what is put out there more like it’s like mainstream media, right? There’s there’s a reason why subcultures and and indie presses and non mainstream media exists because a people are tired of hearing only this kind of mainstream narrative, and they deem it important that there’s something else being said. So yeah, yeah, I don’t think like mainstream quote, I don’t think that white voices will ever be boy, I’m getting my cell phone the shit here. I know. But fuck it, you know, I don’t think white voices will ever be silenced. And this idea that it will be is kind of like a little ethno nationalist to me, Jeremy and like Next, we’re going to be talking about how white women need to have more kids. Wait a minute. Like, I don’t know, if you’ve been watching the the stuff happening in the US. But I guess, you know, we’re, we’re heading right down that white ethno nationalist line, which freaks me out. But yeah. So I

R
think that it is very important to understand that there’s a difference between, well, one thing, they’ve already had a lot of publicity, they’re part of the mainstream. So the mainstream is always going to have some force behind it. But also, just because other people are being lifted up doesn’t mean you’re being pulled down.

L
Right, exactly. Yeah.

R
Because I do think that there is this problem of, kind of like crabs in a barrel mentality. Everybody thinks that everybody else is a crab. This is particularly cute. You mentioned with the white sis hat, male voices, in particular, some of the people I’ve talked to, in the past have been, or at least the mainstream have been like, but what about what does that do against me? How does that we’ll pull my options down and say, you have so many options already. It’s really not. This is giving other people away in to what you already have.

L
Right? And, you know, it’s particularly interesting, like that idea of, of like, allowing other, the response to allowing other people the same amount of time and space to do to do and have what white people have already. And in white people’s reaction to that is, well, what about me is so intensely narcissistic, like, I can’t handle it. It’s crazy. It’s crazy.

R
And so I want to change topics a little bit here, away from that, because I think we’ve gotten some good talks, but if we continue this, you’re gonna be agreeing with each other and be like, you’re so amazing.

L
It’s gonna turn into a downward spiral of like, just keep away people, man, like it always does.

R
So I want to, I want to pull it back a little bit and talk about your writing and in particular, with, with your writing you touch on pain and loss quite a bit. And what drives that focus for you?

L
Um, well, I mean, it’s, I feel like, you know, whatever is coming out of my brain, it comes out on the paper there. I don’t intentionally write very often, I think like my upcoming book is the one piece of like, intentional writing that I did. And maybe that’s why I think it’s actually good because, like, I didn’t just like carry out Let’s come out of my brain. But I but if I had to think about it, like what is compelling about the human condition are those moments of pain and loss and, and love and empathy and like these these very vulnerable bits of ourselves that we try and hide from one another. Yeah, I think maybe that, that drives that focus, or at least unintentionally does or unconsciously does so like, I, I feel closer to people and maybe this is coming from my own damage space, but like, I feel so much more. Part of like the human species, when I find somebody or some piece of writing or music or whatever that is able to speak to what the kind of negative shit that I’ve felt because so so much of like American culture right now excuse me, like us American culture, we were huge continent. So much. It’s like us American culture is predicated upon this kind of toxic positivity and every look how great everything is in my life. And I think that makes a lot of us feel super alienated. And then when we come across some something or somebody that’s like, yeah, things are kind of shitty. And this is why and they’re being honest about it. I think that’s compelling. And I think that, that we connect with that on some level. And I think it reminds us like, Hey, I’m human, and other people are human, too. And maybe we can be human together.

R
So it’s not an active thing for you, but sort of just, it’s what you respond to well, and so that ends up being how you also express yourself,

L
for sure. And I definitely wonder at times, if like, what comes out on a piece of paper for me, because I’m a savage, and I’m still writing with paper and pen. I wonder if that really, I mean, it probably is a product of the way that my brain has been wired over the years due to like trauma or whatever, you know, that tends to be the focus, maybe, I don’t know. But I do write a lot about love, too. Like I, I have been on like a rash of love poems lately, which is really disgusting. I need to get back to my harder hitting pieces, people are gonna start thinking, I’m a one trick pony. And I don’t like that. But yeah.

R
Okay, so your writing was not always on this, you you, you kind of just felt you I think we’ve talked about this before, where you sort of just kind of go with the flow of your how you’re feeling. And put that out there. And assure, and with, with your journey and your process with going into poetry and fiction writing and such, what would be something that you think would surprise people if you were to tell them about your journey?

L
Hmm. Let’s see. My fiction is not fiction. I think everybody knows that. By now, though. Like my fiction, like, my, my pieces of flash fiction are things that actually happened to me. So like, if you’ve read Newports, or like child locks or whatever, those are things that actually happen. I am not. Well, I mean, I think that I have a propensity to fantasize about things that happen in my life like woman to get this job. And then when I have that money, I’m gonna go buy some cute leather chaps or some earrings. Like, I definitely have that kind of that kind of wishful thinking of like, future planning or whatever. But I don’t have the type of, of imaginative mind to be able to create worlds and people in dialogue out of thin air, it’s just not. And think that’s maybe why I’m a really shitty liar. I just don’t have that kind of creative spark. So all of my quote fiction, it’s just not it’s not fiction. It’s things that happen. And and yeah, that’s maybe maybe that would be surprising. I think. The other thing is that like, I don’t sit down and intention, like writing is a compulsion. I’m always writing something. But like, I don’t sit down at 5pm and crack a beer or some coffee or get my desk set up and gone. Okay, I’m going to potentially write this poetry now. It comes when it comes and like, when blocks happen, they happen and it’s either because I’m trying to write something and can’t get it out. I’ve had that happen before where like, I need to tell this one story. And like, I can’t bear to write it just yet. But I just it’s kind of like a depressive episode, right? You just kind of have to wait it out. But I don’t force my Self to write. I think when you do that, like, bad things come out like crappy quality and it doesn’t come off as authentic anymore. So like, I’m not going to like, if I’m feeling a love poem, for example, I’m going to write the love poem, if I’m feeling like, hey, I need to write something about hot dogs today. That’s where it’s going. Unfortunately, and that’s getting posted to the blog, but yeah, whatever.

R
So for you with your writing, this kind of always in parentheses based on real events tag,

L
for sure. Like the it is a, it is a veneer of fiction, if we can call it that this thing is that it’s like a top coat, you know, for your nail polish. topcoat, and like, I very intentionally don’t use people’s names or like identifying things. It’s, you know, so like, there’s what do they call that? deniable plausible deniability, whatever. Like, yeah, no, it never happened, but it that it did, like I wrote a story about a woman peeing on the subway when I was in New York City last semester. And that is absolutely true. It absolutely happened. I just don’t know how to world build. You know, what’s the old saying, you know, you write what you now write.

R
I definitely understand that. Because I’ve, when, when I wrote my book, I was there. Obviously, it it. It’s a fantasy world with like pixies and such. So It delves into things that are outside reality. But a lot of the references that I make are, or at least like the personalities of people and such, or even the characters, I do take bits and pieces from people that I’ve met over the years. It’s not just I’m making this, and Steve just cut from the whole cloth of my imagination, and there’s no basis for it. It’s very much well, I’ve met people who express themselves in this way. I’ve met people who are this kind of bubbling Enos even though that’s not something that I would normally be myself, it’s something I can be like, I’ve met this type of person. I know how they act, or Yeah, I’ve seen like these types of people. And here’s how I’d imagine if you combined these pieces together.

L
Yeah, you know, thinking about stuff like that, or trying to imagine myself doing it like I you know, what blows my mind is like the crime and mystery writers, like how do you keep from the reader who did the thing? Like you almost have to work backwards and like, I don’t that like I have such respect for fiction writers especially like mystery and crime writers because that is a talent. I do not have it. It sounds super complicated. You know, I think about somebody like, like, I love urban fantasy stuff. Like Cassandra Clare’s Mortal Instruments is a big, wise, young adult, whatever, I love it. But like, the amount of imagination that it takes to think of this whole world, within within the shell of a, an actual city and an actual world. It’s just like, mind blowing to me. I’m like, Well, I can’t do that. So what I’m good at, you know, but I admire the shit out of it and respect these people. Like, wow, that’s super human.

R
Yeah, I’ve read some stories in some books, and I’m just like, I could never do this. If I read it. I see what they did. And if you asked me to make something similar, I would fail miserably.

L
Yeah, and it is, I mean, like, think about the granddaddy of fantasy Tolkein Right? Like, this dude is brilliant. I forget just making up a whole world just like Lord of the Rings then he went back and did like a history long history of Middle Earth and like made up languages and like what kind of absolute God sent to earth like, your blessed brain, your blessings aren’t even understand. It’s just incredible.

R
I think even with with Tolkien, though Tolkien had a history and language. Like he has studied languages. And so with that taught with talking studying languages there, that becomes a matter of okay, that’s still taking a reference from what he knows, right? So I wouldn’t be able to do that. I don’t I’ve never studied languages. I don’t have any of that, but that’s something that he specialized in. So being able to expand from his working knowledge of languages and such is still taking reference from real things that he’s experienced to then. Crew Read the languages of Middle Earth, right?

L
Yeah, yeah. I mean, you see kind of Orwell doing that in his in his stuff to 1984, he executes Orwell Animal Farm to like that. I don’t know, that type of, you know, creativity, I don’t know. Like, I just think that, that that is just not something that I’m capable of. And I admire and respect it and bless God.

R
Well, that’s a different form of writing and a different form of a different style, from what you do. Your style is still very appealing, and has a following of it, though. And I wanted to ask you, if you found the world of publishing to be welcoming to your point of view, and your voice and your style so far, I think,

L
um, yeah, I think that it’s an acquired taste for sure. You know, I think it’s been welcome among the publishers that publish it, for sure. You know, and I think it’s definitely been well received amongst a certain kind of twisted humor sense of people like just that sense of humor that people have. I think people like me, who are, you know, a little, like, like degenerates, you know, what I mean? Like, I think like, that has been super well received. And, yeah, it’s been welcoming. I’ve seen a couple of like, one off reviews that have been like, Oh, this is this is terrible, you know, that, you know, you go and look at the kind of books they like, and they’re reading Hemingway, you’re like, Well, what did you expect from a book called bucket, you expect Leaves of Grass. Like, somebody, there’s one of my favorite reviews is the only negative review I got, and I was in love with it. And whoever wrote it, deleted it, but he called bucket, quote, the literary equivalent to a dick drawn on a bathroom wall. And I loved that so much, I ended up stealing it and putting it on my, like, my Twitter bio, and I’m like, That is perfect. That’s the perfect example of like, description of me as a human being right. Like, like, I’m just one big shitpost. And like, that is something I would do draw to kind of bathroom wall. It’s, it’s immature, and kind of like, dumb ly funny. And, and, and just like, a real thing somebody would do. And I really wish they would have kept that negative review up because I I was in love with it. It made me so happy.

R
It was a fun review. I think the some of the negative reviews end up being funnier and more memorable. In a sense, then the positive one side of the puzzles, like I feel great. I appreciate you. Thank you for enjoying my work. Right. And thank you for expressing.

L
Yeah, I’m confused by the good reviews for sure.

R
But then some of the negative reviews I remember, one I got was that my book was aggressively straight was the phrase. It was almost too straight, they said, and it was just hilarious to me. Because there’s there’s two male main, like, characters throughout the story that we follow. But they’re, they’re not in a romantic relationship at all right. And so I didn’t try to make any chemistry for that I didn’t try to make any signals for but somehow this person ended up thinking that they would end up doing something like they did end up in a homosexual relationship. So they’ve came in with some expectations, I assume. And then they weren’t met and they wrote this like long review about how it wasn’t what they expected. And then the story just, it felt like it dragged on from a technical person, it felt very much like their feelings were hurt that they were the two main characters weren’t gay, and then everything else after that was just them being upset about that and throwing a temper tantrum. But it was so long and it was the the phrasing of aggressively straight just has stuck with me. And my book has been out for a long time. This was a review from the pre reading like the advanced reader copies. So this wasn’t even after it was published. It was before it was published. And I still remember it as this just great review. It was a negative review, but it was really great because it was memorable. And I think that your DIG drawing on it writing on a bathroom walls kind of similar to that where it’s like, that’s just really sticks with

L
Yeah, you know, I think also like, I think that’s hard to go Um, you know, and I don’t know how it is from like a, a gay male perspective, I can dog as a queer female, that like, I hesitate. If I was doing fiction, I would even if I was recounting some of my own stories, I guess, and doing my, my quote fiction, I would be super hesitant to talk about, about like, lesbian, sex and love because, you know, when does it when does my intent of representation cross the line? Into? Well, I guess it really is based upon subjectivity and observation, but like, it’s, I don’t want I don’t know, maybe I should just say what I’m going to say is I don’t want to create lesbian relationships, or even talk about my own lesbian relationships weren’t to be a three ring circus, or for it to be fetishized or like, it turns into some type of weird porn or each gene out like I I think there’s one. I think it’s difficult. Given? You don’t know, it doesn’t happen when you’re writing for queer audience. Whenever you’re writing for a straight audience, I don’t know. Like, especially being women, you know, this idea of like, ooh, two women. Very strange. I don’t know, I don’t know if if other writers feel that same type of tension? I definitely know, Ginsburg didn’t I mean, my God, some of the stuff he was putting out who he wanted an audience for sure. But like, I think, I think it needs to be talked about just because we need to get, we need to get rid of and eliminate heteronormativity, you know, but I don’t want, you know, a portion of my own sex life being treated like, you know, fetishizing it’s and whoo, you know, I don’t know.

R
Yeah, I think that this is definitely something that’s important to talk about when it comes to talking about marginalized groups or diversity, both for sexuality, as well as for ethnicity. And everything is, just because you’re part of that group doesn’t obligate you to talk about your experiences as a member of that group, right? It’s, it’s a matter of the people who are comfortable and willing to do so should have the opportunity to express themselves. But we shouldn’t be trying to force it onto people, which I think is something that also is a problem. Sometimes what happens is, you’ll you’ll get the people who are taking it the wrong way, when they talk about accepting diversity. Instead, they’re trying to push people to talk about their experiences, even if they’re not comfortable with it, which then isn’t helping? For sure, for sure, and no way I’d say that, I’d say it’s even more, it can be even more damaging than the people who are just saying, Well, I don’t want diversity at all, because it can make people feel less willing and less welcome into the space.

L
For sure. And I think it runs the risk of of traumatizing them in a really real, profound way. You know, if you’re hitting people or forcing people to talk about something that they’re, they don’t want to or they’re, they’re unwilling, you know, and I think about, you know, the first example that comes to my head is, you know, trans representation and the question everybody wants to ask for, you know, trans person guy, just like I was married to a trans woman many years ago. You know, the first question, anytime anybody found it off was, you know, questions about your genitals, and it’s like, Oh, my God, do you have any sense of like, what is appropriate and what is not like? And that is me saying that, you know, and I don’t have a scrap of appropriateness in my body. But you know, like, I think that forcing people into spaces where they are compelled, they’re forced to talk about something that they are not comfortable with. It’s inappropriate, or, or they just don’t want to, for reasons of their own privacy can be extremely damaging, extremely traumatic for them.

R
And I think that that’s not actually diversity at that point, because diversity is a matter being open to people who are willing to do are going to talk about their experiences. It’s not a matter of forcing people to talk about their experiences.

L
For sure, yeah, absolutely.

R
And so I want to ask you with being outside the mainstream and talking about things that aren’t the mainstream, what would be one piece of advice that you would give to fellow writers, fellow authors who are not in the mainstream and wants to talk about topics or points of view that aren’t part of that mainstream format or mainstream perspective.

L
Ignore, ignore the big five would be my biggest, you know, stop trying to write for them. You know, they’re just not going to take it. They’re not, they’re not like those big publishing houses are not willing to take the risk that small pubs and indie pubs do, and thank God, you know, like, Thank God for independent publishers and small publishing houses that can do and are happy to take the risk and are really adamant about opening the space for different voices. God bless every single one he really cheese. So yeah, ignore the Big Five and just be authentic about what you’re writing, like, don’t like fuck the audience, don’t worry about it, write what you need to write, and how you need to write it and keep subbing to pubs. Just because you got 10 noes doesn’t mean that like, there are literally millions and millions and millions, like just look at Twitter man, like there are millions of, of pub of independent publishers out there all over the world that are covering every topic you could possibly imagine I am positive, there is some type of like Sasquatch loving, pub out there, you know, like, there’s something for everybody. So just it’s a numbers game, keep going, keep going, keep public, you know, keep trying to submit and you will eventually get a pub and your voice will be out there. And I would say the next thing, which is really the reality of this situation is lower your expectations. You know, we I think anybody that wants to be a writer has these wild fantasies of, you know, being you know, a New York Times best seller and all this money and who were going to be the next JK Rowling without being a, you know, turf piece of shit. And we’re going to make this money and we’re going to make a living, or we’re going to be the next Georgia or Martin or the next Charlene Harris or, you know, some, some big writer that can’t Danielle Steel, whatever that can make a living on writing, that is just not the case. It is it is the minority that that is the exception to the rule. So get ready to work a shitty job and, you know, and publish your books and be happy that they’re out there and get paid a little bit. And you know that you know, lower your expectations, you want to you want to, you want to promote it better. So better go take a course on Skillshare, you are ready to pony up some money on fiber or something, you know, that you can have a professional do book release. I mean, if you’re that adamant about getting your stuff into the mainstream, from the underbelly of the writing community, you’re gonna have to spend some some duckets on on getting up a promoter? If that’s what your goal is? No, no.

R
So your advice would be one, just be willing to put it out there? Don’t give up? Because you’ve gotten a few knows. Yeah. And then the second one would be understand what you’re getting into that writing is not generally going to be a career especially starting off in writing. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. That even even if you want it to be a career, you’re going to need probably several books out first, before it starts really building any momentum. And even then, a living is very different from huge famous success.

L
For sure. And I think I think it’s even more difficult. If you are writing from the underbelly from from outside of the Big Five, you know, obviously, you’re not writing part of their formula. You’re not writing the kind of stuff that middle class liberal white women want to read that makes them feel, you know, nice and good and warm at the end of the day, and that they’re the white knights of the universe, or, you know, whatever. If you are writing something very different, or, you know, you could even go the way of Stephen King or what’s that guy’s name that does on the Tom Clancy. You know what I mean? If you’re not writing like these people, if you’re not writing within the mainstream with the idea of catering to the mainstream, like, getting to that level of success is I mean, it’s almost impossible to begin with while you’re in the mainstream. Forget it. If you’re coming from our area, you know, let’s let’s be real and that’s okay. You know, who the hell wants that kind of? I mean, I’ll take a billion but what like I don’t know, like, that’s not something that I ever consider like, Oh, I’m gonna make a whole bunch of money on this book. Great. Just think about this as your art. Right and, and, and you’re finding a gallery that will hang your art and a pub that loves your stuff and cool, great. It’s out there. I don’t know. Like, I hate to be that kind of like asshole that’s like, Just be happy with what you get here. That’s not what I mean. I mean, like, like, stay stay authentic. Keep subbing and, and like, you ain’t going to be a millionaire baby. Like, just let’s be realistic about what, what is to be expected of this?

R
I think that that’s an important message is no, I think the one that you said about authenticity is really and the ones that you said about like, not giving up and contained a sudden, are really important messages for people to hear. Because I’ve talked to some people and they’ve been like, well, maybe nobody wants to hear what I have to say. And to anyone listening, if you’re if you’re thinking that there is an audience for everything,

L
for sure. And I’d like to add a follow up to that, but like it. Well, I’m gonna sound like an asshole. What is it that you’re trying to say? Do you know what I mean? Like, if there might be a reason why nobody wants to read what you’re writing. You know, I mean, as in you suck, or you know, or your Donald Trump writing some stupid shit. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, absolutely. There’s an audience for everything, often to some people’s detriment. Like, like, I think there are some books that maybe just shouldn’t have been, shouldn’t have been published. Anything coming out of the trunk? And I’m sure that’s one. But like, hone your craft, I mean, good luck. The point of that of me saying all this is like maybe the reason it’s not resonating is because you need to, like hone your craft. And, and maybe you’re not saying anything, you know? Because I’ve seen some manuscripts of friends of mine, where I’m like, What do you like? What are you doing here? Like, I’m just dicking around, like, I can tell. Like, you don’t have to have a meaningful moral at the end of the story. But you say something. Right? Like, you know, Twitter can be a pain in the ass, because while now it’s more than 140 Characters The Back in my day. Or, you know, it’s 100, it’s 140 characters to 250 characters just say nothing at all. So how much more? So are you writing a 10,000 word? manuscript, and you are saying nothing at all? That might be a very real possibility. But if you’re not doing that, and you are saying something, yes, please continue to, to push. I think we know when we have something in our hands that are that is important to say. So if you’re not getting if you feel that way about your work, then keep submitting. There is an audience for everything.

R
Thanks, something I’d like to add to that is that, even if we’re not adding to the, like, conversation for diversity, or we’re not specifically like, you mentioned yourself that you wouldn’t feel comfortable talking about your, your experiences as a queer individual. And even if we’re not talking about these types of things, if that’s okay. And when you’re when you’re writing, writing to have some, if you have something that you want to express and you’re expressing your art, your expression is the important thing, right?

L
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.

R
And that, if you’re being true to yourself and true to what you want to write, that’s a lot more important than trying to fit any particular mold. Because I think that it’s, it’s not any different to try and write for the big, big for now, actually. Given the Big Five, the Big Four, after remind myself about sometimes, but it’s it’s not that much different to try and write for the Big Four in the mainstream as it is to try and make yourself write a story about queer experience or about black experience or about policy and experience that’s not something that’s authentic to you. They don’t feel comfortable doing. Don’t force yourself into it.

L
Right? Yeah, cuz it’s not going to come off as authentic anymore. You know, it’s going to come off very forced. For sure. Yeah, I think and I think it’s difficult to when you’re a writer, your medium is you’re going to get you know, old school here, but it is your pen and your paper and your words. And that’s hard. Oh, you know, another piece of advice for writers that are submitting, you know, into publishing, please, please do yourself a favor emotionally disconnect from your work, write that little shit and be done with it, it is not your baby, you are not, excuse me, you’re not feeding it, you are not putting away a college fund, you are not empty nesters when it’s gone, like you have got for your own mental health, please, emotionally disconnect from your writing when you begin to submit. Because if you do not every single rejection and there will be a lot of them. You know what I mean? Every single rejection is going to be a mental health hit to you. Like, just write it and let it go out in the world. If it’s rejected, it’s rejected. Who cares? You know.

R
I think that’s some good advice for people’s to keep themselves emotionally and mentally well, throughout the process is very important. You know, take care of your mental health, and do what you need to do to do that, and understand what you’re doing. So I want to bring this back around to talk about you a bit more. And with your writing. You mentioned before that you’ve been writing basically your entire life. And it just is something that happens for you. What would you say? Is your goal as a writer? Do you have a specific goal? Or is it just something that you’re writing, and you’re like, I’m writing, so I might as well put it out there.

L
Um, you know, writing for me is a five, I think I said this earlier, you know, writing for me is a compulsion. I’m always doing it, whether it be journaling, or an academic paper, or, you know, poetry or, you know, fiction, you know, fiction, whatever you’re gonna call it that, or, I mean, lately, it’s been academic stuff. But like, it’s just something that I’ve done since I was a kid, it’s, it’s the way that I process. Like, what happens in my life, it’s the way that I process the world around me, it’s the way that I process my own thoughts and emotions. So it’s always happening. I think that would be my only goal. You know, it’s, it’s very much a self centered Ooh, it’s very much a self centered process, because I’m not writing for an audience. I’m writing for me. So like, if I write a poem about, you know, shitting my pants, it’s because I’m trying to process why that happened to me, and why my life is God’s shitpost. So like, you know, or it’s just, it’s a memory that came out of my head at one point in this ADHD real brain. What if I’m writing a love poem or something that, you know, lately, I’ve been kind of touching on, or trying to get comfortable writing about some of the more difficult aspects of my life where I’m kind of sticking my toe in the water. It’s always about processing. It’s always about getting rid of something, like getting rid of it, I guess. But like, dealing with it, or putting into words, some type of feeling that I’m feeling at that moment. So yeah, like, the goal of my writing is really to just go through this journey of, of processing and like maybe mental health and healing or just catharsis or, you know, it’s like therapy, right? Yeah. So I don’t know that there’s any external goal of like, yeah, I want to be the next. You know, I don’t know, Stephen King, or I want to make a career out of this. Or, you know, yeah, it’d be great. It’d be great to make a million bucks off this stuff. But that’s not my intention. It’s not even on my horizon. I’m just writing to get the shit out. Like it’s like lancing a boil we’re getting rid of the toxins. So like, if another piece of my never gets published again, I’m still good. It doesn’t you know, like it’s no big deal. It’s always a surprise like, Hey, man, you want to publish this shit? Okay, cool. All right. Yeah, you’re sick. I like you. Yeah. But like I’m, I’m so happy like that. And that’s why I think like these good reviews on these books is like, man, okay, like, I don’t get it. I’m just kind of processing my own bullshit here. But I’m glad people found some meaning in it and like, they like it or it speaks to them on some level. But yeah, like if I if it if not another piece of mine is published again. I’m totally fine with that.

R
So for you writing is it’s a personal journey. It’s part of your personal journey, and it’s part of how you process your personal journey, and work through everything that’s going on in your life. and anything outside of that is a bonus.

L
Yeah, it’s a surprise surprises the hell out of me and like, okay, cool. All right. This is weird and wild. And, you know, I like, you know, I am deeply it is very surreal. You know, like, I remember being in kindergarten, I think they told us on the last podcast, but like, drawing these little like write, they were stapled pieces of paper. I really remember this in kindergarten very much. So little staple pieces of paper where I write like fairy tales, you know, and I specifically remember, like, rewriting the princess and the pea and doing like little kid scribble drawings of it in like this picture book, you know, and I like, being a writer has been my, you know, whatever the hell that means. has been my dream. I know, I’ve always wanted to be a published writer if I was being specific. So having now coming up in July, my third book coming out, like, that is a very weird, very surreal moment. For me, it doesn’t feel real. Because it’s a dream. actualized you know, and it’s, it’s weird and exciting and cool. And almost. It’s almost like it didn’t happen, you know, because it’s just so weird. Like, I just, like three, like three, let alone why me one was a big deal. Now we’re on three. That’s creepy. And

R
what’s exciting, but strange.

L
Yes, it’s very strange. And then to get reviews on it, like, what parallel universe Am I living in that people give a shit enough about this weird thing that I put out that they’re reviewing it like that is, you know, I don’t even review shit on Amazon. So like, the amount of effort to go through and write a review about something like that is beautiful. And like, the reason I do reviews on my site of indie writers is because, like, I think that is the best way to support other writers in indie pubs, like, let’s get money in these people’s hands. And like, Let’s spread these incredible stories that people are telling that we would have never known about, had it not been for indie presses. Yeah.

R
Yeah, do think signal boosting is very important and very helpful to be able to support each other. And it’s something that we can do without investing any money. Because let’s be real, we’re not the big four. So we don’t have tons of money to throw at people. But we can still provide support to our fellow authors and fellow writers by interacting with what they have, and sharing it with the people that we know and sharing it through to the audiences that we have and letting it get out there. And I want to bring this all kind of to back to the publishing as a whole. And ask you if there was one message you could get the publishing community large and small to hear and kind of understand. Do you have one message that you say and what would it be

L
the publishing community should I don’t know. You know, that’s a stumper. I got a head scratch there for a minute message to the publishing community, not writers I’m taking. Okay, I got one for publishers, please update your submission guidelines, and use real real words about what you are looking for. Please don’t talk about how you want people to submit the rattling empty wine bottles under their bed. What the fuck does that mean? I don’t you don’t I mean, like, if you are publishing and interested in publishing a specific genre, say that gentleman like, I don’t know, like, we want the skeletons in your closet and the spider webs and your butt crack? Like, what the fuck does that please stop with this bullshit language because all of us I know, are confused. And I’m like, that’s the only thing that I can come up with. At this point in time, is like, please, please, I’m begging you. Please, please don’t do this anymore. Yeah, please be clear with what you want.

R
I think that’s a good message to have. Because I do agree that it can be a bit confusing when you look at a publishers website and they don’t say what they want. Exactly. And you’re forced to guess. I think if you’re having to guess if if you’re going to appeal to them, it makes it difficult to feel comfortable trying to submit to them to begin with because like maybe this isn’t, is this really the spiderweb my butt crack. I don’t know. If I put that on the page. I don’t. That may not be what I’ve done. And it can make it harder for writers to feel okay with submitting. And I’ve talked with some writers before, and they’ve been like, Yeah, I mean, I’d like to submit, I don’t know if these publishers would actually, like my work. And that’d be a lot more like, there should be a level of transparency. And we want to try to demystify the process as much as possible so that writers can be like, Oh, this publisher wants this type of writing. This publisher is interested in dirty realism. This publisher is interested in high fantasy, or maybe both, you know, whatever they’re into it, like, whatever you’re planning on publishing is fine. But let the writers know.

L
And I think like, I think this is a mark of, Oh, I’m gonna get myself into deep shit here. Oh, boy, do I say it? Do I not say I think this, I’m gonna fuck it. Let’s just do it. I think that, you know, these types of descriptions are people who have very little experience in this industry, you know, and want to be different and interesting and eccentric, and you know, whatever. Like, we want moonbeams. And, you know, fairy wings, what the fuck genres that? Do you know what I mean? Like, what? What is that? Is that high fantasy? Is that like, what do you want? What do you want? Do you want poetry? Do you want prose? Like? I think that some, I think that the best pubs out there know that Simplicity is key in this very specific instance of like, submission guidelines, right? Simplicity is key. Hey, we are looking for prose poetry that falls into grit, grit, lit noir, meat, poetry, blah, blah, blah, cool. That’s where like, Okay, I don’t fall into that I don’t submit when you say that you want moonbeams and fairy wings? And I don’t know, snakes and snails and puppy dogs tails. You’re not? You’re not setting a realistic expectation. You’re confusing writers. Because those are subjective terms. Right? So like, do you want Halloween poems? What do you want? Like, just be clear, and then those pups will go on and say, Oh, well, nobody’s submitting? Well, no, shit, you’re not clear. You know, oh, I got another one, please. Whatever it is, like, I personally do not think that it is acceptable. I don’t think it’s let’s even just remove the word professional. Because that’s loaded. I don’t think it embraces the humanity of the person that is sending you writing. To never respond with a rejection letter. It could be a form letter, dear. Whatever, whatever your name is. We read your stuff. We don’t think it’s a good fit. Thank you so much for submitting. We look forward to trying again. Whatever press name, you know what I mean? can be as simple as that. Cut and Paste. Please stop not responding to people that are submitting to your, your magazine, your book, your anthology, whatever, it’s not cool. It is not human focused. It is not empathetic. It’s not. It’s not fucking cool. Like, you know, and then have these crazy submission rules like, Oh, no simultaneous subs, you know, submissions, like, That’s bullshit. Come on, like, and it shouldn’t take three months to get back. Like I’m not saying you need a couple days, but like, a month is a good time frame. And just pop out a form letter, hey, this didn’t work for us. You know, we’re so sorry. Thank you, whatever. But like, please respond to the people that are are submitting to your pub. Like, it’s a human on the other end of the internet. And like, less affirm that humanity

R
think that’s a good message to end on, in a sense is saying, let’s affirm each other’s humanity. Let’s understand that we’re all humans. And let’s respect that with how we function and how we operate around each other. Yeah. So I want to thank you Leah, for talking with me today and being on the writers triangle. And thank you for all of our beautiful moss for listening. Thank you. So I can you tell us and everybody listening where to find you on social media?

L
Oh, I you can find me at WWE dot poems that sucked up COMM And Twitter I never remember my own Twitter handle. Isn’t that terrible? I think it’s something like x suck ass poetry or something like

R
I think it is.

L
And it’s terrible. I should have written on my hand all the time. And I’m on Instagram, which is a joke. But I put was like really cute outfits there or something. I don’t know what I’m doing at the the Leia John. So it’s there. I’m there. Whatever that means. confused all the time.

R
There you go. And just for your confirmation at suckass poetry is correct. I just checked. Good job you remembered it. All right. And so all of our listeners, thank you for listening. And be sure to visit cinnabar moth.com or simple ones literary collections.com and check out the transcripts and we’ll also have the social media links. And thank you for coming on today. Yeah. Talk to you. I’ll talk to all of you could have moss another time. And goodbye. They