Episode 36: C.W. Allen Interview

R
Hello cinnabar moths or any kind of moth you’d like to be welcome to the writers triangle cinnabar moth’ss podcast of all things publishing books. Today we are here with CW Allen, author of The Secret benefits of visibility. CW how’re you doing today?

CW
I’m doing great. Thanks for having me on the podcast.

R
The pleasure to have you. Are you feeling excited about the release of The Secret benefits and visibility?

CW
Yes, very excited. With the release of the last book, I feel like I felt a lot more nervous didn’t really know what to expect. And now, you know that it’s that it’s the second time around. I feel like I know what to expect and don’t have to be nervous anymore. Just excited.

R
That’s great. I’m glad that you’re able to kind of like have the nerves nuts second time around. Yeah. So secret benefits of is of the secret benefits of visibility is your second book with us? Does this launch feel different than relatively normal secrets? Aside from your more relaxed feel about

CW
it? Um, I think it feels a little bit different. Just because it is a sequel that, for example, we had advanced reader copies come out for reviewers. And I was able to personally contact some people that I knew had reviewed the first book to see if they were interested in the sequel. So for you know, from from some of the publicity and preparation aspects, that’s been interesting, just because it is a sequel, that it’s kind of a continuation of a project I’d already started rather than something new. So that was a little different this time around,

R
and see how that little bit of the ability to rely on some of the people that you gained contact with from relatively normal secrets launch and the experiences that to kind of feed into this one.

CW
Yeah, rather than just kind of sending a project out to the void, and not sure what’s going to happen, I was able to direct it a little more this time.

R
Okay. And so with that control, I guess, for lack of a better word, like kind of control over a little bit, did the, did you do a lot of different things with this lunch? Or what kinds of things did you do to know are different than the last one?

CW
So starting with, when the advanced reader copies come out for reviewers, that’s really the first time I’m allowed to talk about the project sort of that publishing likes to keep it secret, there’s a right time to talk about new things. And so when the review copies came out, that was my signal that yes, okay, I’ve cleared to talk about this now. And so I made a list of people that had reviewed it well, or reviewed the first book, well, that I thought would be interested in the sequel. But then also was able to make some promotional graphics, things like that. So just mostly from the publicity end, that I felt like I was being I was able to be more proactive instead of reactionary.

R
Okay, I feel that it feels good to be able to take some active steps with it.

CW
Yeah, for sure. That’s great.

R
And with the, with it being the second book, was the writing process is different from relatively normal secrets to the secret benefits of invisibility,

CW
it actually was quite a bit different. So I have written other books before, that are kind of in in different places in the publishing timeline. So it’s not like this is the second book I’ve ever written. But it was the first time I had written something under contract. Meaning that when I wrote relatively normal secrets, I was just on my own, I was writing it because I wanted to there were no deadlines. I had to edit it within an inch of its life and second guessed some things because the process of finding a publishing home for a book takes a long time and can be rather daunting. And you want to make sure everything’s just perfect. So because this book was entirely written, knowing exactly when and where it would be published, that that was a little bit different to, on one hand, not have to worry. And second guess myself, I knew that it was going to a good home and would be in good hands. But on the other hand, I didn’t have all the time in the world. I had a deadline this time. And so that was was quite a bit different as far as the writing process went.

R
Okay, so the major differences were being able to be confident that’s going somewhere, and then also knowing that you don’t have as much time to go back over things as you did.

CW
Yeah, so, unpublished writers or yet To be published, I guess, really have this work ethic of it’s got to be perfect. And they need to because the publishing process is is so daunting, it’s really hard to get a book published. And so they feel like it just needs to be to be whittled down and edited and perfect. And so it was a bit of a change of mindset, this time to say, no good enough is good enough, I don’t need to worry about it. If changes need to be made, my editor will tell me so. So so that was, it was a change of mindset for me, I guess, to feel like to have confidence in the process, and to to not feel like I had to worry about whether it was perfect.

R
Just say the ability to relax a little bit with that, and to not have that stress allowed you to enjoy the writing process more.

CW
Yeah, yeah, I think did. I. The only part of that that was like, most of it was, these were all been, that’s to be able to, to know it was heading to a good home, and to not worry about those things. So a lot of the aspects that were different were less stress, the one thing that was slightly more stress maybe was knowing that there was a deadline that it’s got to be done, it’s got to be turned in by a certain date. And so I tried some different things within my writing process, to just kind of try to plow through and keep going. For example, if I had background characters that would only be showing up once or twice, their name really wasn’t important. I didn’t name them till the end. Because I just felt like I didn’t want to lose momentum had to keep writing. And now that I’ve had experience doing it both ways, I don’t think I’m going to do that anymore, that I’m able to kind of trust my own process more and know that there will be enough time for everything. And I don’t need to to have that plow through at all costs mentality. So that’s not necessarily a negative, it worked out fine. But now that I’m working on the third book in the series, I know that I have tried some things that I probably will not try again.

R
So you had to do some, some changes to your process and experiment a little bit but overall.

CW
Yeah. Yeah, that I just that I thought, okay, I know this time is different. So it’s a sequel, I might have to do some things different. And some experience experiments in the process worked, and some didn’t. And that’s what experiments are for now. I know.

R
So overall, with the, with the experience that you’ve gained, and everything, do you feel like you’ve changed as an author.

CW
Um, so I, on one hand, I feel like I always want to be stretching my abilities, I always want to be growing and getting better as an author. But on the other hand, it was kind of comforting to see that, that I have a writing voice that’s very personal to me, and that it does carry through from project to project that I didn’t need to reinvent the wheel every time. So I hope I’m growing different, definitely. But it’s been nice to see now that I have a larger body of work that there is consistency to it.

R
I can say it, it’s maybe you haven’t changed so much as an author necessarily, but you’re able to recognize aspects of yourself that you didn’t notice before.

CW
Yeah, yeah, definitely to be able to, for that, to feel familiar to know that it sounds like me.

R
I think it is very important to be able to feel like you have your own voice and to understand what that is, and, you know, play into it if you want to, or just like you know, wherever it allows you to make that decision. Yeah, yeah, definitely. For the secret bits of benefits of invisibility, what would you say was the inspiration for it?

CW
So I write for middle grade readers, which, you know, teens and adults can enjoy those books, too. That’s what I read for fun. But I read primarily for readers that are between maybe eight and 13 because I have such vivid memories of what it felt like to be that age. And one of the things that I remembered a lot was feeling like I was being dismissed, like people were saying, Oh, just you’re just a kid. You don’t know what you’re talking about. And so now as an adult, I write because I have have something to say, I want my thoughts and opinions and values to be taken seriously. So the invisibility in the title doesn’t refer to, you know, a literal magical power of invisibility. But the idea that children are often overlooked or dismissed. And so I understand how insulting that felt when I was a kid. And I wanted to extend that to my readers, and to be able to say, I see you, I know what this is like. So as the characters experience, that feeling of not being taken seriously, because they’re young, they find ways to turn that to their advantage, they are doing kind of some spy work and find out that because they’re not taken seriously, they’re not viewed as threats, and that can be an advantage.

R
Okay. So it all comes from your experiences with children being taken lightly, and being like, well, here’s the positive spin on it.

CW
Yeah, yeah, I want, you know, readers be the children are not to be able to take that negative feeling and say, What is a positive? Proactive direction? I can take that.

R
So when you’re writing the secret benefits of visibility, and going through this second publication process? Are there any surprises for you during the process?

CW
Yeah, so I started out with a pretty detailed outline. And I felt like I knew where the plot was going. But as I was writing, the details get filled in. And I realized that I wasn’t going to be able to make nixes character as visible in this book as she had been in the previous one. So next is the dog. And she’s the, the mother’s pet. And I, you know, as I was writing, I realized, it just didn’t make sense for her to be with the kids on their little adventure, it made more sense for her to be with the mom. And so when the two groups of characters get separated, that was kind of a surprise to go, okay. She’s not going to be as much of a feature in this book. And I know some readers really loved her from the first book. And so I hope that’s not too disappointing. She will be back in the in the next one. That was, that was a surprise to be like, Oh, okay. She it just doesn’t make sense for her to be here. How else are we going to solve problems without her.

R
She was I remember a pretty fundamental character to allow the development and the story for relatively normal secrets. And, and with the secret benefits and visibility, you had to do some changes away from that.

CW
In some ways, that became an advantage, though, because in the first book, she helped get them out of a lot of trouble. And in this book, I kind of needed them to get in some trouble. I, you know, they needed to have challenges to overcome, without so much help. So in a way, that was an advantage to be able to say, Okay, we can’t we can’t rely on magic dogs to save us, what are we going to do to save ourselves?

R
Right. And I think that did provide an opportunity for the children to grow into their own, and a lot of ways throughout the story. Because they had to overcome these challenges on

CW
that. Yes, I hope so. And I and I feel like that’s an experience that is central to childhood, that when you’re, we’re used to being supported through problems. There comes a day where you go, all right, I’m on my own, what am I gonna do?

R
It’s very true. And so with writing the first book and writing the second book, and going into this second publication process, you said that you feel like you understand yourself better as a writer, but you also feel more confident as a writer?

CW
Yes, definitely that. So I’ve also had several short stories and things published since the first book came out. So to say, All right, I am a multi published author, kind of helps dispel those feelings of impostor syndrome, I guess, that a lot of authors talk about feeling like that. That, you know, it was a fluke, maybe they can’t do it again, maybe they don’t really belong in this space. So yeah, that was it brought a lot of confidence to be able to say, Yeah, I’ve done it before and I’ll do it again.

R
Yeah, I’m glad You’re feeling more confident, and it is exciting to be able to say, Yeah, published multiple times. I am a published author with multiple works out there.

CW
Yeah, yeah, definitely. Something that I’ve had to need that I’ve needed to do for publicity and marketing purposes is set up a website, and needed to have what’s called a press kit. So that if a, you know, a blog, or a podcast or something like that wants to contact you. They have your biography and your works published, and they can kind of see what you’re about professionally as at a glance. So that’s nice to be able to kind of fill out that section and say, No, it’s not just one book, I do novels and several anthologies, and I’ve got a body of work here.

R
So your newest book is what’s coming out is like secret benefits of invisibility. And I remember last time, we talked about your family being excited about the book, who would you say is most excited in your family? For Book Two,

CW
I would probably have to say, my oldest child, my daughter is 14. And she is my, my number one editing partner she, like, if a scene is not working, I’ll have her read it and see what’s going on. And I’ll want to make sure that the characters that are children, their voices sound like things that her parents would say. So she has been really integral in the writing process. And so she’s definitely excited to see it out in the world. Every time we go to our local library, she points out on the shelf where relatively normal secrets is. So it’s really exciting to see that secret benefits of invisibility, it’s gonna sit right next to it on the show.

R
That is exciting. And I think that’s awesome that your daughter’s part of the process and gets to have that excitement as well. Yeah. And so with the relatively normal secrets, had some milestones that it achieved? And what milestones that it achieved, do you hope or that the secret benefits of visibility, manages to match or even potentially surpass?

CW
Oh, let’s see. Well, um, so relatively neural secrets was nominated for several awards, and the Eric Hoffer award, it placed second in its category, just recently, we got the word back on that. So that was really exciting. I would like to see relatively normal secrets, you know, be entered in some of the same contests again, and do well in that space. But most of all, I think I’m just excited about being able to reach readers that I’ve had teachers and librarians and things like that, contact me and say, hey, my classes, reading your book, would you record a short video of you introducing it? Or, you know, would you be able to send a copy for our library to have? So that’s just been the most exciting thing is knowing that there are readers out there enjoying it, and that once they read the first book that they’ll want to see what happens to that, and Tuesday next?

R
Yeah, that is really exciting to have that contact. You’re building a fan base.

CW
Yeah, little by little, so I’m, you know, still actively promoting the first book, I think. So middle grade books, especially because readers are students, that it’s okay for a book to kind of grow organically rather than need to make a big splash right at release, because you have new readers aging up every year, that get to be the right age to read this book. So yeah, so I’m, you know, still doing a lot of outreach with, with teachers and librarians to try to help get the word out. Because middleby grade readers can’t always access bookstores and libraries and things by themselves. They don’t have a credit card to jump on Amazon and, and go buy their own books, you know, so. So it’s really important to make contact with the people that help introduce them to the kind of reading they’re going to want.

R
Yeah, that makes sense. And with relatively normal sequence, having created a lot of buzz there is this fan base growing. And when asked you is having this fan base fun for you, or do you feel like it adds a bit of pressure when it comes to your writing?

CW
Well, that’s a good question. Yeah, yeah, I think it’s mostly fun. I you know, I do. Think about my readers, especially writing sequels where I know they might have expectation And I want, you know, I wouldn’t want anybody to read the first book, and then come into the second book and go, Oh, wait, that’s not what I thought I was getting at all. It’s not the same. So So I do have, you know, I do think about wanting to meet readers expectations. But I think mostly it’s, it’s just fun. Like, I feel like writing a book is wrapping up a gift and presenting it to the world. And I would be so disappointed if nobody ever unwrapped it and enjoyed it. So so having, especially target age readers, enjoying the book is just really exciting.

R
That’s a good way to think about books is them being wrapped up as a gift that you’re presenting to the world? That’s a very positive outlook. I like that. And so with, you’ve had now relatively almost secrets, and now the secret benefits of Invisibility is coming out. Or what? Looking ahead, what are you planning next?

CW
Oh, okay. So in the short term, so this year, I will be teaching at a writing conference in August. That’s the quills conference in Salt Lake City, I’ll be teaching a couple of classes for writers. And I have a short story coming out in an anthology probably November or December. And that one was a rather new genre. For me. It’s a adults, targeted audience. And it’s humorous science fiction. So those were all things I had never done before. So it was really exciting to try on something new there. In the longer term, there’s a third book coming in the fall in time chronicle series, it’s called the tales of the Forgotten founders. And that will be out next summer, summer of 2023. And that will conclude Zetton Tuesday’s series, and after that, I have ideas for more books, but can’t get into specifics there yet, so So that’s probably the next thing for readers to look forward to is the third book in this series.

R
Thank you. So everyone listening, you got your accounting book, too. And very soon here, and you can look forward to book three coming out next year as well. Going back to the secret benefits of invisibility, and the excitement for that. Which character, you say that you are most excited for both new and reader like new readers who are falling things as well as people who read felt agnostic, that’s a while ago, to meet or experience in the new book.

CW
Yeah, so this book has some returning characters, but lots of new ones. And as people kind of reviewed, relatively normal secrets, it seems like everybody had a different favorite character there. In fact, it was kind of interesting that you would sometimes get reviewers say that they thought a certain person was the main character. So it was interesting to hear different people think of a different character as the main one, you know, it’s probably just because it was their favorite. So we have lots of returning characters coming back, but some new ones, I think probably my favorite new character is a student in seventh Tuesday school named freak. And he has kind of this very, no nonsense way of interacting with the world. He kind of speaks with no filter. And so that’s going to be kind of a fun addition to the crew this time around.

R
Would you say that freak is your favorite character, or if he’s not, who is?

CW
I think probably my favorite character to write was Overwatch on. So she is returning from book one. And she is really fun to write just because she’s almost 100 years old. And she feels like she has earned the right to do and say whatever she wants. She doesn’t care what anybody thinks. And so that’s, she’s just so fun to write. Because, you know, sometimes even as I’m writing, it’s almost like she’s talking to me, and I’m just typing and transcribing what she’s saying. And sometimes she’ll say things that make me laugh as I’m writing it, because she’s just so outrageous.

R
That’s awesome. Having an experience with your characters. And a while John is a standout character that I remember people connected with as well. So for those of you who experienced a version before he can look forward to seeing her again.

CW
Yeah, she had a rather small role in the first book, and she’s got a big role in the second book. So if you’re no Bachchan fan, you’ve got lots to look forward to.

R
And with it being the second book that includes some more opportunities for Easter eggs or surprises, did you include any in the secret benefits of invisibility for fans?

CW
So I did kind of on accident, actually in relatively normal secrets in the first book, the very opening scene. Zedd is reading a book, and he has to put it down to go deal with his sister being suspicious. And so I decided that he would be reading one of my favorite books. It’s the Western game by Ellen Raskin. So, so in the first book, there’s, he describes enough of the book that if you have read the West End game, you’ll know that that’s the book he’s talking about. So in the secret benefits of invisibility, there is another easter egg that refers back to that same book, I won’t say exactly where it is, it’s, it’s toward the end. But if you haven’t read the Westing game, you’ll know when you see it.

R
Okay, so there is a nod out to though to people who have read one of your favorite books, if they know they know.

CW
Yes, exactly. And, and even if you don’t catch it, it’s you’re not missing anything. It’s not central to the story. It’s just, if you happen to have read it, you’ll know.

R
Okay, so that’s something for those of you who have read the Western game, look forward to and keep an eye out for with the secret beds of invisibility, what do you think that the fans will love the most? about it?

CW
Oh, that’s, that’s a good question. Maybe they’ll have to tell me. I mean, just because I enjoy obasan I think they will, too. I think the kids get a real sense of agency and this one that they’re able to, I don’t want to give away the whole plot that because of circumstances, a lot of the adults that would normally be telling them what to do aren’t around. And so they kind of get to, to make some important contributions on their own. And I think kids will really connect with that feeling of empowerment.

R
Okay. Yeah, I definitely think that as a kid, I remember a lot of instances where I felt like, I, when I was doing things on my own, or without help the I was gaining a superpower and a sense of, I’m doing this on my own, and I am awesome.

CW
Yes. I mean, that’s why kids want to, you know, build forts and have secret clubs and things like that is, is to get that feeling. And so I hope that, that reading about certain Tuesdays experiences, will provide that feeling vicariously for readers.

R
Yeah, I think that’d be great for them. With with the, with writing this process, you mentioned that you did think about whether fans would like things and some of that in mind, when you’re writing the secret plans for visibility. And you were thinking about having a fan base? Did you try to appeal to them at all? Or was the focus more on what the story needed? Or did you have a bit of a balance?

CW
I think it’s a bit of a balanced. So you know, I want to just tell the story I want to tell and not worry too much about, you know what I imagined people are going to think of it before it’s even done. But I did recognize, we talked earlier about how NYX was kind of a fan favorite from the first one. And just plot wise, it didn’t make sense for her to have as large a role in the second book. So I introduced a character specifically that I thought would kind of fill some of the same roles that she did. There is another animal sidekick in this one that doesn’t necessarily get them out of trouble, but provides a little bit of that comic relief that Nick’s did sometimes. So that was one instance where I thought, Okay, I’m having to take away something that I know the fans enjoyed. What can I plug in an in its place? So that’s where another animal character came in.

R
Okay, so thinking about the fans enjoying live next is kind of what spawned that character’s introduction into the story. Yes,

CW
yeah. I wanted to make sure that there was there was not a whole left behind that, that needed next to fill it.

R
And that’s, that’s interesting. I hadn’t thought about that concept of filling it in with something that’s similar, but not quite the same.

CW
Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I hope that I tried very hard to make sure that even though there are very serious things happening in the book, that it still had moments of lightness. And so I had to intentionally say okay, we’re getting a little dark. Cure, what can I do to lighten it up?

R
Yeah, I do think that balance is important because a story that’s all dark can work sometimes. But that’s not necessarily always the right mood, especially with the considering relatively normal secret style is not a purely dark story.

CW
Yeah, and I think that’s the kind of thing I enjoy reading. At the end of the day, I have to write what I want to read. And I don’t want to read things where everything’s going wrong all the time. I’m gonna laugh sometimes, even if we’re talking about serious topics.

R
So that makes sense. And so the secret benefits of Invisibility is coming out soon. And I’m excited for the release of it. I know your fans are too. And I’d like to thank you, CW Allen, for talking with me today and for being on the writers triangle. And I like to thank all of our beautiful moss for listening. Do you have any final words to say to your fans, or tell us where you can find you on social media?

CW
Oh, yeah, I just want to thank everybody for reading. You know, I feel like I talked earlier about how my writing is a gift I’m presenting. And I am just thrilled every time somebody wants to unwrap that gift. So social media, you can find me online at Twitter at CW Allen books. And then I have a website, CW Allen books.com. I’ve got some resources there for writers, for teachers and librarians and for readers. So I have different sections there. If you wanted to take a deeper dive than just reading the books, there’s there’s some fun extras there. And I also have a newsletter you can sign up for so all of that is at my website, CW Allen books.com.

R
Thank you very much for coming out and talking with me today.

CW
Thank you. It’s been great pleasure.

R
And for everybody listening. Thank you for listening. And be sure to catch the secret benefits of visibility when it releases on Tuesday, June 7 2020, to be sure to visit cinnabar moth.com and check out the transcripts we’ll have links to all of CW ELA and social media and where you can also find links for the secret benefits and visibility. Once again, thank you for coming on today and take care.

CW
Thank you. Bye