Episode 54: Cassondra Windwalker Interview
R
Hello cinnabar moths or any kind of moth you’d like to be. Welcome to the Writers Triangle, Cinnabar Moth’s podcast about all things publishing and books. So we’re here with Cassondra Windwalker, the winner of the 2022 Cinnabar Moth Literary Collections Award for Excellence in poetry. Cassondra, congratulations on your win. How you doing?
C
Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
R
How are you feeling today?
C
I’m doing really good. It’s been raining here for about three solid weeks. So it’s it’s I’m a little sleepy. Little a little somnolent load at the sound of the rain. But other than that, I’m good.
R
Yeah, it’s been rainy over here quite a bit recently, as well. It’s nice. I enjoy the rain. That’s good. How does it feel to be the winner of the excellence and poacher award?
C
Honestly, it feels quite surreal. I was stunned when I learned about this, and I was just so deeply humbled and honored and just really staggered by the honor.
R
So what was your first thought when you’re told that you one
C
of our I can’t possibly be right? I don’t deserve that. There’s so many really remarkable poets out there. And I was just really moved and touched that my work had enough of connection with the people who read it that they thought that it was worthy of that.
R
We survived it in literary collections did enjoy your work. And I want to delve into it a little bit, can you tell us some of the inspiration behind your poetry.
C
Also, this particular book is called tide tables and tea with God. And I wrote this book after my husband and I moved to Alaska, which was an enormous change in both of our lives, and a change in how we connected with the natural world around us, and a change in how we connected with people around us. Because we live a much more isolated life than we did before. And in the midst of all of that change. There were some very, very significant losses that occurred. And so I was looking for ways to make sense of how we connect with a world that is full of endless death, but but equally full of life, and how we make sense of that with the natural world and how we make sense of that with one another. And how we make sense of that with ourselves. Okay,
R
so you’d say, the inspiration behind your most recent work a poetry was from your real life? Is that correct?
C
Yes, yes. I often say there are different genres of poetry, like there are everything else. Some people write fantasy poetry, or paranormal poetry, or horror poetry, but my poetry, I would always say is nonfiction. It’s not necessarily about my life, but it’s always true. And it’s always about how real people are connecting with real events and, and real spirits around them. Okay, so
R
you often draw inspiration from you draw inspiration, I guess, not often, but for all of your poetry from the experiences of the people and the experiences of yourself in the world around you. Yes, yes. Okay. So who is that a little bit more? When it comes to your poetry? How would you say that you approach that with dealing with loss and dealing with life and, and managing that conversation? I suppose.
C
That’s a very big question. I see it to be the, the, the root of a poem is always in the minutia. We often are trying to tell a really big story, or we’re trying to tell about somebody we love that died or trying to talk about war or trying to talk about injustice. And those are really big topics and we can use really big words, but if we’re going to make a poem out of it, and if we’re going to connect that really big story to just one other person Then, on the other side of that poem, we’re going to need to talk about something really small. So maybe when you’re talking about someone whose mother died after months, in a hospital, you don’t talk about his mother dying, you talk about the way the styrofoam cup with the cold coffee felt on his mouth and, and how that was the strangest comfort and, and how he hates Styrofoam cups now. So I think poetry is all about taking the biggest things we have to grapple with, and making them small enough that someone else can read them and carry them with them.
R
That’s a nice imagery. I hadn’t thought of him that way. But it’s make it small enough to carry? Yes, I do think that these big topics can be kind of overwhelming in their totality.
C
Yeah, when the when Russia invaded Ukraine, back at the beginning of the year, I thought, like a lot of people thought that this was going to be a very short war. And after it had taken a few days, I was like, this is lasting longer than I expected. And I was really struck by all of the stories that were coming out of the region. And I decided I’m going to write a poem every day about that war. And so I was reading new stories every day, and looking for the really small things that would that anyone could read and connect to even if Ukraine and Russia and Europe felt very far away and very distant that they could find this one little thing and hold on to. And the war has lasted much longer, much longer than I expected. But that’s still a significant part of my day, every day is reading through all the stories and accounts and looking for that one small thing and writing that one small thing so that it doesn’t get lost, I hope in in all the detritus of war
R
with this kind of focus on taking the small things from the the larger totality. Will you say you took that approach as well with the timetables into with God with the collection of poetry there?
C
Yes, yes, I think that was definitely what I was doing. It was we had such big stories to tell my I had a friend right before we moved just a few weeks before we moved here, who died by suicide. My husband’s cousin that he grew up with, died by suicide. And my stepson died shortly after we moved here just shortly after that. So we had these really, really big stories that are very difficult to tell. And at the same time, I’m learning all of these stories of Alaska, which there’s an immense wealth of stories here that people have shared with me that the the land itself has been sharing with me. So I was overwhelmed with huge stories that had great import. And I hope that I was able to distill them in this book, and make them small enough to drink down in a cup of tea maybe.
R
Yeah, those are definitely very large topics to tackle and to bring down to a more karibal level to the poetry with Yes, about your work and going into the have an idea of where you’d like your work to go next, so to speak.
C
Well, I have another work of poetry that I’m trying to find a home for. And it sort of juxtaposes the worlds of Alaska and Madagascar, where my husband and I travel for his work periodically. And particularly looking at the circumstances of women in those two very disparate worlds. But they they face some of the same struggles and difficulties in albeit in very different ways. And so I am hoping to find a home for that book. It’s called paint by numbers world. Because we have a tendency to paint the world into numbers, we think we have a first world and a second world and a Third World and identifying who’s in which one enables us to decide how we’re going to think about them, without really any empathy, or, or guilt maybe for how we judge them. So I’m hopeful to find a home for that book of poetry. That’s the next one that I’m working on there. And then I’m trying to find a home for the novel I just finished, which is called the gardener’s wife’s mistress. And it’s wildly different from any other novel that I’ve written. So we’ll see if I, if I can find a good home for it.
R
Even just from the title, it sounds like a rather interesting story. And hopefully, you’ll be able to find homes for both the novel as well as the poetry that you’ve recently done your work on.
C
Thank you. I’m working on it.
R
And so, going back to timetables and tea with God, do you have any ideas of other poetry awards? You’d like to win? If
C
you could? Oh, gosh, I, I don’t know. It’s, there’s the big ones, of course, everyone would like to win the Nobel Prize for Literature. That seems a little a little outsized. For me at the moment, I think the most important thing to me is that the poems are read, because no work of art is completed by the artist. You know, it doesn’t, you could paint the most perfect painting in the world and combine and somehow trap all the spirits of the world in that painting. And it would not matter if no one saw it, and connected with it, and perceived it, and understood it. And poetry is one of the most adept forms of art, probably next only to music. And that it’s very much about what someone is bringing to the art has to do with what they draw from it. So no, you know, the same book of poetry in the hands of 10 people is 10 different books of poetry. So it’s much more important to me that my work is read than that it’s awarded.
R
Okay, so, while getting rewards is nice, and it feels good, it’s nowhere close to your focus when it comes to
C
your work. Yes, my only my only desire in winning an award is that, oh, maybe someone will see that I won that award, and they’ll want to read it.
R
That makes sense. And so when you’re going back to your writing process a bit, what would you say is something about your process that you think might surprise people
C
and maybe how disciplined it is, for me. I think a lot of people have sort of a romantic idea of writers who are suddenly stricken by a magical Muse and overcome and scribble things down furiously in the middle of the night and, and then maybe don’t write again for three more tortured months. And I’m sure there are plenty of people who do operate just that way. But I’m very disciplined in my work, and I work every day, in one way or another on my art, and I’m continuing continually trying to find readers.
R
So the surprising thing is just the level of daily dedication that you put into not only the writing aspect, but also the outreach to find people to connect with your your art.
C
Yes, yes, I think that I think most people don’t realize how much drudgery is involved in in the art world.
R
So, given this drudgery as well as your your experience with poetry in general, what would you say is some advice you’d give to aspiring poets? Your are looking to break into poetry.
C
I think there’s a couple of different approaches to poetry in particular, I think there are people for whom poetry is an outlet. It’s it’s very therapeutic, it helps them center themselves. It helps them divest themselves of feelings and ideas that would otherwise be overwhelming and helps them work through and process traumas and worries and anxieties. And I think that is a purpose for poetry that’s very different from my approach to poetry, which is for the sake of the art. And if you’re going to be an artist, as a poet, then you have to be really ruthless with yourself. You have to be continually honing your craft, and bettering yourself and examining your work and not being self indulgent, but actually telling the story in the best, truest way that you can. Not not just indulging yourself,
R
I think that’s a very good point is to try and keep the authenticity to the story intact.
C
Yes, because you may have to talk about really difficult, uncomfortable, ugly things. And you need to do that in a way that’s fair to the content. And that will connect and be true for the reader or the listener.
R
So would you say, you might suggest to a potential poet, for example, that they write the first version, that self indulgent, and they get that feeling out, but then afterwards, they go back to it and kind of reshape it to be closer to what might be connectable for a reader or listener? I think that’s excellent advice. Yeah. Okay. And so, for your poetry, how would you describe your poetry style, so to speak?
C
The vast majority of what I write is free verse. Sometimes I will dabble in other forms or unmetered poetry. But most of what I write is free verse.
R
Did you have a specific reason for choosing to focus on fevers? Or is it just something that happened naturally, with the way that you end up writing your poetry?
C
I think it happens naturally with most of it works best with the voice of most of the voices that are poems that I’m writing. The nice thing about metered poetry or poetry that follows very strict forms, is that it really forces you to choose your words well, and be very mindful that you have the absolute best word in the best place, and it encourages a sparseness of mind, that can be very helpful, that carries over even when you’re writing free verse. So I think I think both approaches are very useful, but most of the time, the voice that I’m speaking in is more acceptable and free verse. So would
R
you say that having experience with writing more measured and metered poetry can be helpful with the what you had mentioned earlier about? Kind of taking these large topics and making them smaller?
C
Yes, absolutely. I think that’s very true. There’s a there’s a book it’s been out for quite a long time. The actor and comedian from Great Britain, Stephen Fry, wrote a book called The owed less traveled. And it’s really hilarious, really irreverent. But incredibly scholastic. He goes through all of the different forms of poetry, and gives very rude and body examples of all of them, which are just wonderful. So he does an excellent job of demonstrating how you can deal with all kinds of topics in all kinds of voices. So within these very strict forms, and what that kind of approach does is it enables you to really be a master of the language that you’re using. So that even if you are writing in free verse, or in limericks that your work has the most punch that it can the biggest impact.
R
Yeah, do you think that that variety of experience can be helpful? Like imagine even as a, when you’re writing books that that experience can be really helpful to kind of improve the efficiency of the words that you’re putting on the page, even if there’s more of them when doing a collection of poetry, or just a collection of words to create the story for a novel?
C
Yes, absolutely. And I think people talk a lot of times very derogatorily, about Twitter, which is mostly fair. But if you, if you happen to participate in the writing or the reading communities on Twitter, it can be enormously useful for disciplining your writing, because when you start responding to the various writing prompts, that are available on Twitter and trying to tell an entire story, or write an entire poem, and these 280 characters, you really have to be disciplined, if you’re going to tell anything coherent. And so it can be an excellent, excellent way to practice your work and maybe not even practice. But especially if you’re working full time, you’re you don’t have time to come home every night when you’re exhausted after dinner, and the kids are off to bed and and now you’re supposed to write chapters in your book and your brain is scrambled. But maybe you can write a chapter in a tweet, you can tell a little tiny story, in that little tiny space. And so doing, you actually improve yourself as an artist and improve your mastery of language itself. So any anything you can do to add a little bit of discipline into your art is going to pay dividends.
R
And that’s a another great piece of advice for anyone out there aspiring to go into poetry or even existing poets who wants to try and find a way to improve their their art is to take those opportunities wherever you find them to explore, perhaps a different way of approaching ours to open up your mind to these other possibilities.
C
Yeah, it’s an odd paradox. But when we box ourselves in, we often find entirely new worlds inside that framework, where when we were scribbling madly outside the lines, we didn’t even perceive what was really in there. So discipline can be enormously freeing in the weirdest way.
R
So going back to your your writing a little bit, what do you hope people get out of your work?
C
Well, I think, especially with tide tables and tea with God, I think that even in our modern society, where we talk a lot about mental health issues and depression, that we are still deeply uncomfortable with those realities. And we’re also very deeply uncomfortable with death, we have managed to get to a place in our society where death is really sanitized, it’s whipped out of our fuel division almost as soon as it happens. It’s cleaned up, it’s tucked away, and then we all go back to work. And we function and we, we proceed as if nothing had ever happened. Or at least that’s that’s the expectation. And I hope that my work is a way for people who are not finding that possible, and who are having real struggles, and are afraid of themselves or they’re afraid of pieces of somebody that they love, that they can look into these pages and say I that’s familiar, I recognize that and I can grab this hand of this person that I don’t know. And I can I can get one step farther, I can get through another day I can get to another sunset. This I’m not alone in this, this is real, and it matters and it doesn’t diminish me as a person. And I can make this a part of my life in a way that is life giving and not life destroying
R
Yeah, I do think that having that connection to one’s grief and one’s pain, and having that connection not be an anchor in our lives, or any continual source of destruction or lives can be difficult at times to manage. Yes. So going to your, your overall writing and your experience with poetry and writing as a whole, would you say that you have any specific person that you draw? Great inspiration from?
C
As a poet, or as a reader?
R
Let’s do both. Let’s start with poet and then you can also mention as a reader
C
I think it’s so difficult because so many poets have had a really deep impact on my work, maybe the most impact? That’s very difficult. Maybe, maybe Rainer Maria Wilkie? I think because he talks a lot about walking with the things that we often try to walk away from, like solitude, and sadness, and loss. And he talks about how we walk with those things. And, and they’re not things that we need to run away from or find a place to bury them. They’re things that we incorporate into our joys. And so that he is probably had a major impact on trying to carry that message forward. As a reader. It’s really difficult to say also,
R
I know it can be hard.
C
I know. Gosh, I don’t think I can That’s like asking someone their favorite book. You know, it’s like, for some reason, everyone asked that question. And that is the worst question. Not only are there like 1000 favorite books, but the 1000 changes every day, you know, is who speaks to you on one day? versus another? So I have no idea.
R
That’s totally fair. I feel like that happens with music as well. Right? Someone asks you what’s your favorite songs? Well, today, yeah, good mood. So this one’s uplifting? Is my mood right now? Tomorrow, I’m not feeling that good. And this other song is going to be my favorite song then because it matches what I’m feeling?
C
Absolutely.
R
I do think that with poetry of writing as a whole that happens as well, like, well, when I’m connecting with in this moment, is different than what I was connecting with, maybe even 30 minutes ago.
C
Yes.
R
And so with with the kind of difficulty with choosing write, what would you say is perhaps, instead of just one person, but a selection of indie poets that you would like people to know about that they might not already know about?
C
Oh, gosh, well, one of my absolute favorite poets that I discovered just a couple of years ago, his name is Noah Lucas, le que es. And he wrote a book of poetry called Saturday night sage. And it’s fascinating. I don’t know how this came about, but it’s actually published by a record company. I think their name is I think their name is blind owl records. So I don’t know how you pull off getting a book of poetry published by a record company, but I thought that was fascinating. But his poetry is fantastic, because he has the mastery of the language that you don’t even notice it because he’s pulling these images so seamlessly into your mind and it’s it’s very blue collar, it’s very dirt under the nails and rough riding railroad tracks. And at the same time, it has this almost mystical philosophical quality that has really strong On the influences of like, Midwestern like, Christian influences, but much more than that it has these really Eastern Buddhist influences. It just has this sense of the world and have relationships with the world, grounded in these really physical tangible aspects of life that people have to grapple with when they’re hungry, and when they’re tired, and when they’re poor, and they don’t know what they’re going to do next. And they’re desperate. And so it’s it’s a very magical book of poetry. But that still manages to be incredibly down to earth. And I still don’t know quite how he accomplished that, but I’m really impressed by it.
R
Okay, that sounds like quite, that’s quite the glowing review and recommendation right there.
C
I just, I really liked it. And I it’s one of those books of poetry that when you read it, like so many books out there in the indie publishing world, you, you’re so used to reading kind of a cookie cutter books, you get off the bestseller list, and then you pick up one of these indie published books, and you’re like, why am I even writing this is fantastic. You know, you’re, you forget how fresh and inventive and beautiful and creative people can be. And I love that about reading indie published and a lot of self published books. There’s just so much magic out there.
R
Yeah, I do agree that anyone who’s I imagine anyone who’s listening is already going into and diving into the, the indie publishing world, but be able to explore that and having a space that exists to explore people that aren’t in the mainstream, and how these really beautiful voices to share is a great opportunity to take advantage of.
C
There’s never been a moment like this in the history of the world when we had so much access to so many stories. And it would be ashamed miss out on that. So
R
thank you, Cassandra, for speaking with me and today and being on the writers triangle.
C
Oh, thank you so much for having me. It’s really been delightful.
R
And congratulations again, on being the winner for the cinnabar moth literary collections excellence and poetry award.
C
Well, thank you. Thank you very much.
R
Cassandra, can you tell us where to find you on social media?
Yes, I’m on Twitter at WindwalkerWrite I’m on Instagram at Cassandra Windwalker. And you can find me on Facebook at Cassandra Windwalker Writes.
R
And for all of our listeners, be sure to visit cinnabar moth.com or cinnabar moth literary collections.com to check out the transcripts and we’ll also have the links to Cassandra social media. Thanks. Thank you to all our listeners for listening. All of you beautiful months. And thank you Cassandra for coming on.
C
Very happy to be here.