Episode 65: Robyn Singer Author in Residence Interview
Rasta
Hello cinnabar moths, or any kind of math you’d like to be welcome to the Writers Triangle, Cinnabar Moth’s podcast for all things publishing and books. We’re here with Robyn Singer, author in residence for Cinnabar Moth Literary Collections. How you doing?
Robyn
I’m doing good. Thank you so much for having me.
Rasta
And we’re happy to have you and I’m looking forward to talking with you today. Today we’re going to be talking about diversity in writing. And I’m wondering, when did you first learn about the concept of diversity? And what does it mean to you?
Robyn
I first learned about the concept of diversity, pretty early on, permanently, because while as a child, I thought I was just a cis het white boy. I was, I have always been Jewish. And when you’re Jewish, you get taught pretty early about your history, what’s happened to our people over the years, and the suffering we face and discrimination we face? And so yeah, the idea of diversity has always been in my head, the importance of representation has always been there, though. It’s only gotten more prominent in later years, like we to understand the importance of it in storytelling, and in terms of representation in the real world. And of course, it’s only amplified as I realized, Hey, I am not in neurotypical cis het white boy, I am a autistic ADHD lesbian, trans girl.
Robyn
Yeah, that’s quite a bit to cover. And are you with when it comes to making these discoveries for yourself? And so with diversity in general, what does that mean, as far as the expansion of your understanding of diversity?
Robyn
Could you repeat the question please?
Rasta
What does that mean for you, as far as your has that changed your understanding of diversity over the years, as you’ve made these discoveries about yourself?
Robyn
Really in so much as that, I want to see more of these specific groups, even before I was a part of any specific group, I was, I have always pushed for more of it in both behind and in front of the camera, in fiction, politics, etc.
Robyn
So it just hasn’t changed your lens that much just so much as you want to see more representation of your experiences,
Robyn
It hasn’t widened it, it hasn’t widened it so much as it’s impassioned that.
Rasta
And so with that, do you consider yourself to be a part of diversity and writing? And if so, how do you feel you’re contributing to diversity?
Robyn
I absolutely do. I may be a small part of it for now. But I’m hoping it to be on the rise. As mentioned before, I am willing already in half a dozen different ways. And I do not shy away from this, I do not hide that that are part of my identity. I am I go out of my way to be blatant about it, in fact, and I go out of my way to feature these groups that were part of along with many others in my writing as much as possible. And yeah, it’s, it’s important to see it’s, it’s important to me that I get to a point where people can look to me and points as an as an example of hey, here is a trans writer, a lesbian writer, etc. Who is making it happen, who people can want to take inspiration from.
Rasta
And so with, that you’re hoping to have more success and be more visible so that you can have as much outreach to people to have that representation, visible selves as well. Absolutely. And so with, with trying to be out there more that does require publishers and editors and literary magazines and such to also accept these stories and be open to them. What do you think publishers and editors of magazines can do to increase diversity in publishing?
Robyn
The first step is that the publishers have to hire diverse editors. There’s nothing you can do about the publishers themselves. They hold all the cards, but if the editors themselves aren’t diverse, they won’t understand the importance of hiring diverse and acquiring diverse talent outside of in a monetary sense, which they see as very niche market.
Rasta
Right and that for that is just usually very limited. Oh, we’ll do it during LGBTQIA+ month, right, rather than it being
Robyn
They’ll publish their pride month books, they’ll publish their black history, month books, and they’ll call it a day.
Rasta
That’s very different. And we at Cinnabar Moth believe that it’s a matter of these stories just being accepted as stories to be published throughout the year. So here we at Cinnabar Moth, we have a focus on diversity, and it raises all voices, because mainstream point of view is already known. What would you say to those who are you against diversity and claim that by focusing on it were silencing mainstream voices and points of view?
Robyn
I would call every single last one of them a bigot. I would say that to their faces, it’s zero hesitation, I would tell them to get over their privilege, and that their opinions don’t matter. I have no time for people with this attitude whatsoever. And I will not waste a minute on them.
Rasta
Yeah, I do agree that these types of people aren’t open. And so these types of conversations tend to just go nowhere.
Robyn
And to any publishers who have this type of view, I would tell them that are bad at math and hate money, because diversity sells.
Rasta
That’s true. There. I mean, everything but the majority of people are actually people who are not the satellite people. And so when you look at there’s just a lot of and beyond that, there’s so many good authors and writers, yourself included, who are out there that they simply aren’t connecting with. Yes. So to talk a little bit more about your writing, in particular, in your writing you you touch on pain, and loss. And what drives that focus.
Robyn
Over one thing, they’re just very good for narrative, there are classic things to include in the story. They, they provide sympathy for the characters, they provide a struggle, etc. In terms of where I get my own characters pain from though, I’m thinking about the main character of my novel, The Sunrisers, Yale path neck, a lot of her inner turmoil comes from basically having her dreams crushed as a teenager, when despite being the best candidate and every other way, she was denied her dream, because of her autism and ADHD. And I did, I just want to make a side note of saying it was very important to me to use those terms. I don’t care. I didn’t care. It’s a sci fi novels that 1000s of years in the future, I wasn’t going to dance around what condition she has. But back to the question. Back to the question, no. And when you’re, when you get that when you’re told that kind of thing, when you experience the microaggressions that come with that every day of your life, it just builds this resentment in you. And like, you can be proud of your identity, you can say you’re proud of it, you can genuinely be proud of it all you want, but that’s still going to needle you, especially when it costs you what you love most.
Rasta
And so, I think that, like you mentioned that it is important to not dance around these these types of things and be because that also helps people to it, it brings it into the conversation. And, and that’s something that I enjoy about you as a writer is your shortness and your style. Thank you. So with writing and development as a writer, what would you say is something that might surprise people about your journey to becoming a fiction author? Something that would
Robyn
probably surprise people is that my first serious writing, like most writers was genuinely terrible. That’s not the surprising part. No, the surprising part. Is that in a way, I’ve kind of always been doing what I’ve been doing. My style has never really changed. I’ve always preferred a certain type of protest. aganist certain types of protagonists, I should say, I’ve always preferred writing in first person rather than third person. I’ve always preferred the same tropes for the most part of oh, I, I reuse the same tropes a lot in my work. And I don’t think that’s a bad thing. Because I just find it fun to put a spin on them. Basically, a lot. What I’m saying is a lot of writers will tell you how they’ve grown and changed their style and what they like doing in their writing over time. But I’ve been seriously writing for seven or eight years now. And I think I’ve only really polished my style rather than changing it at all.
Rasta
So for you always kind of knowing what you like, and you stay within that, and you just gotten better at doing it.
Robyn
Right. The only the only thing I look back on my writing as sort of Yeah, no, I definitely wouldn’t do that today at all, in a sense, is having a just flat out cop portrayed in a positive light back when I was writing in high school. And I definitely would not do that now. Actually a little embarrassed.
Rasta
I mean, when you’re when you’re younger, you don’t necessarily know these types of things to be able to have accurate conversation about it.
Robyn
Right? If you’re younger and white, you don’t know those things. And that was my privilege coming out when I was writing that.
Rasta
We both this is a way that we can learn and grown. And this is something that perhaps if writing had been more open, right, or just dialogues had been more open about these things. And you had exposure to those dialogues earlier, it wouldn’t have been something that was so surprising to you. Completely I agree. And so with following up on kind of that topic of openness and dialogue, and how do you when it comes to discussing it, and having that you feel the writing is a great way to have these types of dialogue start? I absolutely,
Robyn
I absolutely think works of fiction can be conversation starters, when it comes to important issues. That is something that is a purpose fiction has always served historically. And I think now more than ever, in our media obsessed age where everyone’s tuning in, everyone’s watching everyone’s reading, everyone’s seeing every single clip. Everyone’s constantly posting about it. They it is one of the best ways to make conversations happened. Point to something it’s first thing that comes to my mind. Orange is the New Black. Lots of problems with that show, both in terms of just general writing and its politics. But the fact that it so it was an eye opener for so many people about the American prison system shows that, yeah, if you’re just following the mainstream news, or even the news on Twitter, you’re probably not going to see a lot and you need to see these perspectives to learn about things you don’t know and won’t learn otherwise.
Rasta
And so you also take the opportunity in your writing to try and start these dialogues. And have these discussions happen.
Robyn
I do. A major point towards the end of my novel, is the is a critique of the idea that all opinions should be heard the idea of because you respect someone else’s opinion, that means you should automatically respect theirs. And just generally, the idea that everyone’s opinion matters, are all things that deeply frustrate me, especially since they’re primarily just used by again, conservative bigots, to try and make it seem like it’s all just a matter of different points of view and opinions and not devaluing other people’s lives.
Rasta
Yeah, I do think that is a common dialogue of, oh, no, no, everybody’s important. When that’s not the point of the conversation, it devalues, and shows that they don’t understand what the topics and the conversations are really about.
Robyn
Oh, not only that, I think most of the time, they do understand that they’re just using it as a smokescreen.
Rasta
Yeah, I do think that happens a lot as well. That’s honestly one of the sadder things and so with the these types of discussions, these points of view and this use of your voice, he found the world of publishing to be welcoming to your writing.
Robyn
Um, I would say it’s been a positive experience on that front, mostly because I’ve only worked with two publishers so far and both have commitments to diversity, as they’re one of their primary missions, both cinnabar Are moth and the comic publisher I work with band of bards outside of that. Fun fact, the Sunrisers was the second novel I wrote, I had written four novels before cinnabar moth picked up the Sunrisers. All of these were submitted to agents, and none even got so most of them never even got so far as getting a full read through. And even the ones that did all got rejected in the end, and they were all much like to Sunrisers very queer, very diverse, sold with disabled POC characters, etc. And I think I think those stories were good, I’m confident in them. And I do think that agents just there is a mix between when it comes to agents, the ones who are just beginning, they don’t want to take on these types of stories. And there’s the ones who try to play the game, quote, unquote, where they know they probably won’t be able to sell too many types of stories. So they don’t take them on that many on for that reason. And I do think that could be what happened in my books.
Rasta
And so for that, and that lack of openness to queer stories, and such, you think the importance there is not only just for publishers to hire diverse, diverse editors, but also for more diverse agents.
Robyn
Publishers don’t hire agents, agents are their own separate companies. But those have their own parent companies, which obviously aren’t the ones that care about diversity. And obviously, the same goes for the big five publishers, which are all owned by just a bunch of white sky, billionaires.
Rasta
Yeah, but with changes, we can have more diversity, even in those spaces for the big publishers, as well as agency companies.
Robyn
I absolutely believe that change is necessary. I’m just not sure it’s a plausible thing to have think will happen anytime soon.
Rasta
That’s something might happen in the future, but not for quite some time, if it happens at all. Correct. So with you having experience, being outside of the mainstream, and getting into being published, not only as a novel writer, but also a comic book writer, what’s a piece of advice you’d give to fellow authors who aren’t in the mainstream and want to write about different topics or points of views that are outside the mainstream?
Robyn
Um, I would say, learn to draw, if you can learn to draw, because if you can do that, a lot more people will read a comic you drew yourself that looks pretty. And you post the panels on social media, then we’ll read a self published novel, or possibly even a or possibly even a small press published book. Because just the visuals are give people something to latch on to instantly, a lot more people you can, it’s a lot easier to promote that than a novel. And if you get good at the craft, you can easily win over people just through that you can make money just through that art, support your writing. And you even if and going through a college, getting to a cloud publisher, even a small press one can be nearly impossible. So and paying an artist, someone who’s had to do that experience several times can get incredibly expensive and is beyond most people’s means that to do past a single issue if that. So, possibly odd advice. But I do genuinely think if you think your work will not get into the mainstream. Your best bet to make a career is to learn to draw, and just keep making your own comics. And this would be whether it be through webtoon or something else you’ll find your audience.
Rasta
That’s advice I hadn’t thought of before. That is true of a lot of people act with a visual media like a comic much faster and also gives you something that’s maybe a little bit easier to catch the attention on with social media like you mentioned, because people can just see Oh, pretty picture and then they’re interested, even if they don’t know the content yet.
Robyn
Exactly.
Rasta
So I wanted to ask, what is your goal when it comes to writing both for your comic books as well as for your novels and short stories? Is it primarily a career, awareness, mixture of both.
Robyn
I currently have no intentions of trying to make writing my full career, I have something else in mind there. But basically, I wanted that was my plan. That was my goal. When I was writing the Sunrisers, as well as my currently published get like, like college, which is currently getting published final gamble. Um, but I just think that at this point, that’s not a realistic goal. For me, I don’t think that it will happen. I would love it for it to happen, obviously, but it’s not something I’m striving for. I will always keep writing, I will always keep telling stories. I have every intention to keep writing novels and comics and getting them published. But I don’t plan on making that with how I make my living, or what I think my legacy will primarily be. In terms of my goals are, it’s really just to tell the stories to get these messages out. And most importantly, to me, bring these characters to life. Characters are everything to me, as I mentioned in so many blog posts I was writing for this past week. Or a few months ago, rather, and the characters like my children. It’s It sounds weird, but but they are I love bringing I love detailing these characters, I love flushing everything about them. I love having them bouncing off each other. And once they’re in my head, I feel like it’s my duty to bring them to life and share them with people. That is what I love. And if people can keep keep telling me that I enjoy my work, that will be enough to keep me going. I guess to finish off that I have said that. I will feel successful as a writer. When either a I am making a living wage from it. Or B, I see someone cosplaying one of my characters. I think I could die happy if someone did that.
Rasta
Yeah, I do think there’s a very awesome experience to have someone go through the effort or costume because all cosplay requires quite a bit of passion and commitment to choose a character and enjoy them?
Robyn
Definitely, I’ve done it a few times myself. And hey Sunrisers has already gotten fan art. So it’s not out of the world of possibility.
Rasta
That’s already on his way. But maybe you’ll be able to see that sometime soon. I hope so. That’d be pretty neat if you if your goal is reached off of your first published novels. Thirdly, pretty great. I want to ask you, we touched on it a bit already. But do you feel that publishing understands the level of diversity within your community and your background?
Robyn
Not in the slightest. Now, I don’t think it understands how the LBTQ community. I don’t think it understands the neurodivergent community. I don’t think it understands the Jewish community, or really any minority religion, community, religious minority community. I think that publishing is remains completely out of touch. They understand diversity on a surface level at best. And I think that if laws were put into place, it could restrict diversity beyond just the banned book list. Most major publishers would not fight back at all. I think most of them would just happily go back to publishing nothing. But sis out white trash.
Rasta
Do you think a lot of publishers, the major publishers would not put much effort to changing anything, or pushing back against changes that would even further limit diversity if that type of push was to happen? Right. And that’s a sad truth to be aware of, or fans have actually be true to begin with. If there’s one message that you could get across to the publishing community and have them hear and understand it, what would that message be? To the publishing community? Yeah.
Robyn
I would sit repeat what I tried to get across earlier, diversity cells. If you’re a bit Again, okay, I hate you. But if you have you hold the cards you hold the money for marketing and distribution, you want to make more money, publish more diverse books, we will eat it up people want it. This let we have you just have to let us buy it.
Rasta
I think that’s a good message. Even if it’d be nicer if the message could just be enjoy diversity.
Robyn
They never will, I don’t think they ever they never will, you have to speak to them on their language. I think
Rasta
It is true. It would sell. I think there’s quite a few examples in media that don’t even fully delve into diversity where just the little bits that we see get people excited. Exactly. Imagine how much more excited people would be if diversity were truly embraced and shown. People could actually see themselves in the characters that they’re reading or seeing on the screen. It’d be nice. I would do. So I like to thank you for talking with me today and being on the writers triangle.
Robyn
Of course, it was fun, depressing, but fun.
Rasta
Yeah, it’s not the happiest of topics, but it’s always a pleasure talking with you.
Robyn
Thank you
Rasta
And so I like to thank you for coming on. And thank you to all of our beautiful moths for listening. Can you go in and tell us where we can find you on social media?
Robyn
You can find me on both Twitter and Instagram at Emma L singer. I – my real name actually is Emma. Robyn is a pen name. I hope that’s not too confusing.
Rasta
I don’t think that’s too confusing. Pen names have been used all the time. Shouldn’t be a big deal. And for for listeners, be sure to visit cinnabar moth.com or cinnabarmothliterarycollections.com to check out the transcript and we’ll also have links to Emma’s social media. Thank you for talking with me today. And bye bye