Episode 84: Cassondra Windwalker Author in Residence Interview

Rasta
Hello cinnabar moths or any kind of moth you’d like to be welcome to the writers triangle, Cinnabar Moth’s podcast, but all things publishing and books day we are here with Cassondra Windwalker, our writer in residence for cinnabar moth literary collections. Cassondra, how’re you doing today?

C
Very good. How are you?

Rasta
I’m doing great. Thanks for asking. And also, thanks for coming on.

C
Absolutely, it’s a delight.

Rasta
So today, we’re going to be talking about diversity and writing. Now, I was wondering, when did you first learn about the concept of diversity? And what does it mean to you?

C
Oh, that’s a difficult question. I think hopefully, I think I must have come to absorb the meaning of the idea of diversity and literature far before I had any concept of the idea. I was a voracious reader, as a child. And a lot of my favorite books, when I were little would now be considered as being books from diverse writers. And so I think, for me, the idea that the world was composed of all of these different people whose lives were so different from mine, and perspectives were so different from mine was something to be taken for granted. And it wasn’t until I got a little bit older, that I realized, having that library card was a real gift. It was a window into a world that not everybody was looking out on.

Rasta
Okay, so your exposure came to from reading a variety of books at the library?

C
Yeah, I think that’s fair, the community that I grew up in was in the middle of Oklahoma, which generally is not considered a incredibly diverse place to grow up. But I lived in Oklahoma City, there’s an Air Force base there. And a lot of the kids that I went to school with were Air Force kids. And so I actually was exposed to people from all over the world and who had traveled more and, and we also had a large Asian community in Oklahoma City, people who had come, most of whom had originally been in California, and then moved farther into the middle of the country. So I had friends who were from Vietnam, friends from China, friends from Thailand. And it didn’t occur to me that that was an unusual thing. until I was older.

Rasta
I see I see. So with this experience with being exposed to diverse group of people, and everything, do you consider yourself to be a part of diversity and writing? And if so how are you contributing to that diversity?

C
I hope so I think that there are a lot of ways that a person contributes to diversity first, by sharing their own experiences, and their own perspective, but also an equally importantly listening to and elevating the perspectives of other people around you. So I don’t think it’s enough to just tell your own story and tell it truthfully, I think you also have to listen to the stories of other people and seek those out not listen in a passive way to whatever comes in your direction, but to seek out those different points of views and look for writers and readers who have stories to tell that you haven’t heard, or that you haven’t heard told in that way.

Rasta
So for you participating contributes diversity is two parts, and tying your your truthful story and also seeking out the stories of others and supporting and I suppose in some ways signal boosting other people’s writing as well.

C
Yes, I think that’s hugely important.

Rasta
So with that, what do you think publishers and editors of literary magazines can do to increase diversity and publishing?

C
Well, I have I have a very outside perspective on this, because I’ve never worked on the publishing side of the story. So I don’t know that I’m the best person to speak to that. But I can see what I’ve seen over the last couple of years that I think has been useful. And one couple of things that I’ve seen, as I’ve seen on submission calls from literary magazines, and from book publishers, both a concerted effort to get people from marginalized groups to contribute and to submit their work, sometimes limiting their submission calls only to those people, or in other cases, which I think this is super helpful. Some of the big five publishers that you normally can’t submit to it all without an agent will have limited submission calls where people from those communities can submit their work even if they don’t have an agent, which is a huge opportunity. What I don’t know, is whether or not those manuscripts are actually getting through the gates. I don’t know, if those calls for submissions, and those solidarity statements on websites are actually translating into more contracts for people, or if it’s just an effort to present the right face to the world. So I can’t really speak to what’s actually happening. But I think that those are good signs.

Rasta
Okay, so for you, it’s hard to tell without the inside view to know whether it’s performative, but you’re hoping it’s not? And if it’s not, it’s a good thing?

C
Yes, yes, I would agree with that.

Rasta
That’s fair. I do think it can be a bit difficult at times to know exactly how much we see, that actually translates into real change. For us as cinnabar moth, we have a focus on diversity. And we feel that it raises all voices, because most of the mainstream point of view is already known, it doesn’t really need that support. What would you say to those that argue against diversity and claim that by focusing on diversity, we’re somehow silencing mainstream voices or points of view?

C
It’s difficult for me to take that question seriously, even though I know that there are people who really earnestly do feel that way. But I think if you look at the history of publishing and the history of libraries, you’ll see that there are innumerable volumes from people whose whose viewpoints and backgrounds and appearances are, are quite similar. So I don’t think we’re going to suddenly experience a dearth of, you know, old white men, and it’s going to be this tragic moment where we no longer know what old white white men think about the world, I don’t think we’re gonna find ourselves in that position. So I don’t think it’s a valid point to say that it’s unfair to have that focus. Because we’re still not seeing a an equitable ratio of perspectives. In the arts, even though there are all of these people who have the arts is their focus and their purpose in life. But the percentages of them that are actually breaking out and being seen and being read and being heard, are very small. So I think we have a long way to go. And I don’t think that old white men are going to suffer any, because somebody else is allowed to speak up and be heard.

Rasta
I definitely agree. I think that it’s a kind of an unhealthy mindset to think of it in that competitive way. Right? That somehow helping others to be seen means that these people also can’t be seen too.

C
Right? Yes, exactly. That’s, it’s, it’s not a pie. We’re not going to run out of pie.

Rasta
Right. So I want to change the focus a little bit from talking about the mainstream and such and focus more on your work. In your writing, you touch quite a bit on pain and loss, what drives that focus for you?

C
I think since the time that I was very young, I’ve been very cognizant of the role that loss has to play in how we interact with life and how we perceive life. So even though the topics may appear very grim, and I definitely don’t shy away from how dark they can be or how how sad certain aspects of life can be. I think that when we fully understand how we interact and relate with loss and with death, and with trauma, that’s what enables us to be fully present in the world. And to be fully present enjoy isn’t possible, unless you have made peace with grief.

Rasta
And so for you and say that while you’re writing does go into these topics, it’s not meant to be a sad thing to explore them.

C
Yes, yes, I think that it’s possible to be completely honest and transparent and and even completely bottom out in your grief. And for that to ultimately be a beautiful thing that brings you into light.

Rasta
It makes a lot of sense because processing, what you’re going through and you’re exposed answers is a key to being able to move beyond the pain of them.

C
I think so.

Rasta
So with your writing experience and your journey as a writer, what would you say is something that might surprise people to hear about your journey to becoming a fiction author?

C
I don’t know, I never really find myself that interesting of a topic. So I’m not sure what other people’s perspective or perception of me is, or what they would anticipate. I think there’s a lot of drudgery maybe, to writing that the people don’t expect that there’s a lot of research not into the fun stuff that you’re going to actually get to write about, but research and to agents and publishers and submission calls and trying to figure out exactly how you’re supposed to approach people and what they’re looking for. And doing all the grunt work of accomplishing that, that that takes up way more time than then the fun stuff does.

Rasta
And so, rather than something that’s surprising about us specifically think it might surprise people just how much goes beyond just writing the book and the effort to just write the book involved with being a fiction author? Yeah, I think Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I do think that going into without any prior experience, it’s even when I was first delving into publishing, it was very surprising how many cogs there are in the machine.

C
It’s very true.

Rasta
And so have you found the role of publishing and some of the, I guess, the cogs in the machine, so to speak, to be welcoming to your point of view and your voice?

C
I do not think so. No, I don’t, I don’t think there’s anything remotely welcoming about the world of publishing, I think it’s, it’s a, it’s a city behind a wall that you have to lay siege to, and batter down the batter down the walls to get in the gate, it is not a welcoming place. You have to really be willing to, to do the hard work and prove yourself and take advantage of every tiny opportunity and push past everybody’s discouragements and rejections and expectations. And you have to know when you’re wrong, and you have to bend and change. And you also have to know when to stand your ground and say that’s, that’s not honest to what I’m doing. As an artist, I’m not going to pursue that path. I think that publishing, you really have to go in and find a piece of it and bend it to you. It’s not going to make room on its own.

Rasta
So would you say then that a part of the publishing world, because it has so many barriers to entry has a certain built in barrier against diversity as well.

C
I think it does. And I think some of it, of course, arises from actual sort of deep seated, maybe even unconscious bigotry. But I think, at least equal to that is the fact that so much of publishing anymore is just about replicating prior successes. And to that end, they’re looking for authors and stories and plots, and marketing campaigns that look like what’s worked before. And that being the case, most of what’s worked before, where people from certain demographics that looked and talked a certain way and told a certain kinds of stories. And so those are what mostly gets perpetuated. Everybody says that they want to publish the next great experimental writer, I’m sure any agent would say, Oh, I would love to publish the next James Joyce. But if someone is experimental and daring and difficult as Joyce came along today, he would never find an agent. That would never happen. So I think a lot of the barriers in publishing are simply this desire to replicate the past because that’s where the money was. And it takes a lot of courage to break out of that and and look for readers and money in unexpected places. And most of them lack that.

Rasta
Do you agree there is a certain level of wanting to keep things in what works quote unquote, this worked before If the good will continue working, why change? If it’s not broke? Don’t fix that type of mentality. Yes. But the reality is that it’s we’re not fixing anything by adding more things in, we’re just giving you opportunities to grow.

C
Well, I think that’s one place where independent presses like cinnabar moth, are so important, and where they make such a big difference, because all of a sudden, the whole landscape isn’t dominated by the same five publishers, and, and they don’t have all of the power and all of the control. And there are a lot of readers now who are actually saying out loud, I’m bored with what I’m getting from the bestseller list. And they’re seeking out those publishers who are publishing different kinds of books and different kinds of writers. And they’re eager for that. They’re, they’re soaking it up.

Rasta
Yeah. I wanted to ask you a little bit more about this, being outside the mainstream. And for user, as an author, as well, will it be a piece of advice that you would give to your fellow authors who are not looking to be with the big five publishers who are not looking to be in the mainstream, and want to write about these toxic points of view that you’ve mentioned, readers are trying to pick up more with being outside of that mainstreams bubble?

C
I think the most important thing for any artist is always to be true to the story you have to tell. And not to be swayed from that everybody, every artist, regardless of your medium, or what your message is, has to hone their craft. And they have to continually improve and fight to excel and do better, what it is they’re trying to accomplish. But the core message has to stay the same, or there’s no purpose to what you’re giving your whole life to, and you are giving your whole life to it. The few minutes you have maybe all the minutes you have and it’s all the soul you have. So don’t throw it away. Just for a quick buck, making something you don’t believe in, tell the story that you have to tell. And then it will be read or heard or seen by the people who are going to understand it, and it’s going to be important, and it’s going to matter to them. So don’t Don’t be swayed from that.

Rasta
Yeah, I do think the quite a few authors that I’ve spoken with have said that their their goal is for their writing to connect with the reader, their readers connect with their writing and for their writing to reach people and to give them something meaningful. And I do think that that authenticity is very important for that to feel good when it finally happens. Yes, absolutely. So for you specifically, what would you say is your goal as a writer, would you say it’s about career spreading awareness, a mixture of both or something else entirely?

C
Well, my, my dream, as a writer would always be to be able to support myself with my work, and take care of my family and the people that I care about through my art. And but whether or not that’s feasible, from a practical point of view, I don’t know. But what is important to me is that every time I write a book, I’m doing something new, something different, as an artist, something that I haven’t done before, and something someone else hasn’t done in the same way. And so all of my books are very different from each other. In some respects, even though they’re grappling with the same questions. I’m always trying to come at it from a different direction and and raise new new questions and new perspectives that will hopefully speak to the reader and be a medium for a conversation that they can have with with the art itself.

Rasta
Okay, so for you it’s career is naturally a goal but also having the different ways that you write about and cover the topics connect with people and different people and a variety of people and to kind of reach as many as you can and connect with your readers.

C
Yes, I people argue about it all the time. But I’m a big believer that aren’t we really does absolutely change the world. But it does that one person at a time. No one piece of art is going to topple a tyrannical government. But a piece of art can connect with a person and inspire them and that person can go on to change the world.

Rasta
I think that’s a beautiful message to take away from it for other writers as well to take inspiration from the idea of their work, connecting and moving people to, even if it’s as simple is to improve their own lives a little bit. Well, I would say, as even that’s not so simple, but it sounds simple, say, very well.

C
And I think another aspect of that, too, that we sometimes don’t give the importance that it deserves. It may be that the book you’re writing doesn’t have a grand message, it may be that it’s not tackling a huge topic. But maybe that book you’re writing is a place where a child can escape, who has no other form of escape, who has no other safety in their life, but they have that book. And you giving that child that space for those few hours. That’s that’s a whole world in itself. And that’s as valuable as writing a book that that overthrows the tyrant.

Rasta
Yeah, I think that’s that is not often does get overlooked as the value of providing distance or safety or peace to people, even if it’s just for, you know, 30 minutes a day. Yeah, yeah. Because people often will have difficulty finding those spaces and finding that safety for themselves. And pedaling things going on in their lives or in their own minds, and having a way to get away from that can help to ease that pain.

C
Yes, definitely.

Rasta
So I want to move the topic a little bit back to talking about diversity as a whole with with publishing. Do you feel that, from what you’ve seen publishing understands the level of diversity within your community and your background?

C
Again, I don’t think publishing gives a lot of time and attention to understanding anyone’s community or background, I think their focus is entirely on marketing and promotion, and what can they make money out of? Now there are certain communities and certain issues that they’ll devote a little bit more time to understanding from time to time, but always with the purpose of exploiting that comprehension. In order to sell a book, I don’t think they have any fundamental, compassionate, altruistic interest in communities outside of cash registers.

Rasta
So from your perspective, publishing is just a money making machine that will see opportunities for money through lip service to diversity, but it’s not actually with the goal of spreading and increasing diversity.

C
I mean, most of the time that that’s true, certainly for the, for the big five publishers. Now, like I said earlier, there’s a, there’s a lot of independent publishers who have sprung up for the sole reason of putting work out there that can’t find any other way out. And a lot of those publishers are run by people who have full time jobs. And some of them are run by people who are literally working for free pouring all of their own resources into these publishing houses, because they absolutely believe in that. But I think that those are the exception to the to the rule.

Rasta
Yeah, I think that’s a fair assessment with the Big Five is, you know, there, when things get so that large, I think it often happens where diversity and individuality becomes a less human concept in a way, it kind of dehumanizes that process and makes it more about, well, how do we keep growing? Yeah. So if there was one message that you could get to the publishing community to hear and understand, do you have one message that you would share?

C
I guess I would tell them to trust the readers. I think we often don’t give readers the credit they deserve. And we assume that they only want safe stories that they only want to hear what’s going to make them feel better about themselves, that they’re going to only want to hear what’s familiar, and I don’t think readers are like that at all. I think readers are explorers and their travelers, and the publishing world should believe in them and give them adventure.

Rasta
Yeah, I do think the, there’s one thing, there’s a lot of readers. And for no thing, all those readers have different, you know, they may have overlap in their tastes, but they have a variety of tastes, just from person to person, let alone the totality of all of them. So no matter what the topic is, there’s always going to be some group of readers who will enjoy that.

C
So much of what I learned as a child, I only learned through books, I had no personal experience with certain cultures, certain parts of the world, the only way I learned about them, is through books. And we can’t forget that that enormous power, that we have to literally open up the world, to people through books, and we should do that we shouldn’t stay where it’s familiar, we should break out and challenge ourselves and open those windows.

Rasta
Yeah, do you think that’s important? Because even the same type, even the same topic of story can be written so differently, and from such a completely different perspective, just because one person’s culture is different than others, it can lead to this entirely different understanding of how things flow and work in a world. Absolutely. And that’s a beautiful message to share with everybody. And I think that’d be wonderful if the mainstream publishing community would hear that and understand it.

C
That would be nice.

Rasta
So, Cassondra, I’d like to thank you for talking with me today and for being on the writers triangle.

C
Thank you so much for having me.

Rasta
And I like to thank all of our beautiful moss for listening. Cassondra, can you tell us where to find you on social media?

C
Yes, you can find me on Twitter at Windwalker. Right. Not as in I’m always right. But as I’m always writing, and you can find me on Instagram at Cassondra Windwalker, or on Facebook at Cassondra Windwalker writes, thank you.

Rasta
Thank you very much. And for all of our listeners, be sure to visit cinnabar moth.com or cinnabar moth literary collections.com. And check out the transcripts. Also have Cassondra as media social media links. Cassondra, again, thank you for talking with me today. It’s been a wonderful, have a wonderful time having you.

C
Thank you. Thank you so much. And bye bye bye.