Episode 86: C.W. Allen Tales of the Forgotten Founders Interview

Rasta
Hello cinnabar moths or any moth you’d like to be welcome to the Writers Triangle, cinnabar moth’s podcast for all things publishing and books. Today we are here with CW Allen, the author of the Falinnheim Chronicles. Book three, Tales of the Forgotten Founders, is our June release. And the final book in this seriesof the Falinnheim Chronicles. CW, how are you doing today?

CW
Hi, doing great. Good to talk with you.

Rasta
Yeah, it’s wonderful talking to you as well. I’m excited to get into it. And are you feeling excited about the third and final book in the trilogy?

CW
Yes, I’m very excited. So I’ve had things that happen in this book, planned since before the first book was even written. So I’m just thrilled to be kind of wrapping up all the storylines and being able to share that with readers.

Rasta
I imagine it must be exciting to finally have all these ideas actually out there for people to enjoy.

CW
Yes, definitely.

Rasta
And so with getting into theTales of the Forgotten Founders, and having read it myself, I really enjoyed it. And I, I feel like there’s a lot of good messaging with each book. And, as an example, deals forgotten founders, but it’s a very topical exploration about the banning of books. And getting into that, can you share your intention behind like tackling that topic and why you think it’s important for middle grade readers?

CW
It was really interesting, actually, that. So I had an outline for the book before I wrote it, I knew the kinds of things we were going to talk about. And I knew based on the the history, the world building, a fallen Haim that the Library of Alexandria was going to be involved. So as I did more research on that, to make sure that, you know, while I was writing somewhat fictional things, that it would at least line up with what was known historically, I was really shocked to find out that the Library of Alexandria didn’t just like, burn down all at once people talk about it being destroyed as this catastrophic event, but it was really little by little over centuries, and a lot of its demise was due to different people taking control of the city of Alexandria. And, you know, this idea of a library that has every book in the world was suddenly no longer welcome. They didn’t want every book they wanted, the books that they were cool with. And I, you know, that was just fascinating to me how much that mirrors what’s going on in the United States, and probably in other countries as well, right now. So it was kind of like the book wanted to be about that. I actually did not plan that in advance. But once I learned that, that’s actually what happened to the Library of Alexandria. I couldn’t not write about it.

Rasta
It is actually very interesting. I didn’t know that about the Library of Alexandria as well, and hearing about it, it does make sense when you think about it. But it’s definitely not what you imagine what really gets talked about with how things developed with book control. Banning?

CW
Yeah, well, and that’s not to say that the way the library started, is something that we would want to emulate today, necessarily, because the way they got to have a copy of every book in the world is that every ship that stopped into Alexandria is port got re rated, I guess, like, what would be the right word for this inspected. And if you had any books on board, you had to stay in Port until they could copy the book. And then they would give the copy back to you they kept the original. So that would not really line up with with today’s like, personal property standards. But it really, you know, it was it was a different time. It was, you know, done under an absolute monarchy. And, you know, but but I just found it fascinating that, that the ACC, acquisition of knowledge was so important to them, that they were willing to go to such lengths to get the books in the first place.

Rasta
Yeah, do you think that’s an interesting topic to discuss as well as the what are you willing to do for for knowledge and information? And then kind of book banning is the opposite of that, right? Where it’s what are you willing to do to stop the spread of information?

CW
Yeah, and that was really two sides of the same coin, that in the, with the founding of the library, they were willing to do unethical things to get knowledge, whereas with the demise of the library, they were doing unethical things to limit the spread of information. But both impulses come from realizing the power that information holds

Rasta
That’s very true. Yeah. And so, with that entails the Forgotten founders, you do explore that with the story itself. And you get into that, with the writing about it. And I want to get into a little bit, why do you think that’s important for middle grade readers in particular, you know, the, the audience, the target audience for these books to think about and start connecting to.

CW
I think middle grade is kind of the reading period where kids are finally able to choose what they want to read, you know, they can read independently, they’re often just turned loose in schools and libraries and told you have to read pick something. And so they’re able to finally have many choices and find something that they like. So I think that they that readers that age, can really identify with this sense of what if this thing that has suddenly become important to me that I want to read about was suddenly taken away from me? So I think it’s, it’s an age group where they can really grapple with that concept. And also, I think adults forget how idealistic kids are, that I think a lot of adults underestimate children and think that they don’t think about or can’t understand. Big cultural issues, like book banning, but kids absolutely can. And they take it very seriously.

Rasta
Yeah, I do agree that the as you know, children develop and they grow older, they can tackle these topics. And these are things that they if they’re exposed to them will think about, and even if they’re not, it may still enter into their mind, just by being out in the world and experiencing what the world is like, you know, with the panning of books that they hear about a book that they want to read that sounds interesting to them, and it’s not available, they’re going to go, Wait a minute, why is that happening?

CW
Yeah, exactly. Tuesday actually has this experience in the book that her there’s a book, she very much wants to read, that her mother has said, Whoa, this chapter is gonna be a little too much for you. So, you know, it tackles that aspect of bookbinding, as well, that even when the book as a whole is freely available, that parents do have the right and the responsibility to gauge what is appropriate content for their children. So the way Tuesday’s mother handles this is that it’s not no, this is a bad book. And it’s not. You can’t ever read this. It’s you’re not ready right now.

Rasta
I think that’s a good distinction between just saying it’s off limits, and we’ll wait a little bit longer. Right. Yeah, definitely. I think that also helps to kind of give, you know, developing readers and these young minds the understanding of, hey, there’s those topics that might be too big for my boots now. But I can grow into that. And I can still be aware that they exist.

CW
Yes, yeah. And I think that is a really important distinction to make. Because, you know, some people that have this impulse of wanting to restrict the availability of books, do it for what they feel is a very good reason I feel that they are protecting children. But that is one parent’s right to do for their child, not a person’s right to decide what everybody’s child should read.

Rasta
And even amongst children, right, there’s different levels of development, what a different child might be ready to read, may not be something that your child might be ready to read, just because they’re developing in different directions. The way they see the world is different. It’s a very unique and personal experience, right?

CW
Definitely. Yeah. So I have two of my three children are in this middle grade, reading age right now. And just based on their personalities, sometimes when we go to the library, like, Oh, my daughter would love this book, but my son is going to be upset by this. He’s this is not a book for him. You know, so, so yeah, again, parents absolutely can help their children make good reading choices. But that is very different from restricting books from being available to anyone.

Rasta
Yeah, definitely agree. And I want to follow up on this idea of like, you know, the children having their own unique takes and their own views of the world. I know that there’s a quote from the series that I adore, which is, you say in the books, children succeed because they are children, and not in spite of it. And I feel like that ties in a little bit about talking about the book banning and then being ready for these types of topics as well is the idea that week give children the opportunity to succeed. And they may succeed because of where they are. I want to ask you a little bit more about what it means to you, when you when you said that quote, and how it’s a common thread throughout the series of the Falinnheim Chronicles.

CW
Yeah, it’s. So that quote is kind of my my mantra, my guiding principle for how I write middle grade, and that I don’t want to be lecturing readers about things that I as an adult want them to know. And I don’t want the adult characters in the book to solve all their problems for them, I really want to highlight that children see the world in a unique way and come up with solutions that not only wouldn’t occur to adults, but would be impossible for adults. So like in the second book in this series, there’s a grandmother character that makes the kids aware that they kind of have this superpower of not being suspicious, because they are children. And so that puts them in a very unique position to be able to accomplish big things without the enemies that would like to stop them thinking that they are capable of posing a problem. So that’s, you know, just one example of that kids not only solve problems in their own way, but in ways that would be literally impossible for adults to pull off.

Rasta
So that’s a really good point with the the difference in what’s available just as an option, right, because an adult would get that suspicion. Children don’t. Yeah. And I can think of other things from throughout the books where the children were succeeding, because they were children. And it wasn’t in various different ways, depending on sometimes it was Zen, and sometimes it was Tuesday, and certain aspects of them and the personalities that let them succeed. But you do put a very much they’re succeeding forward not succeeding, despite the disadvantage of being a child.

CW
Yeah, so I never wanted the characters to pursue a solution that an adult would think of, and then do almost as good as an adult, I wanted them to have their their complete, unique spin on it.

Rasta
I think that’s one of the things I enjoy about the book, as well as you do empower the children to be heroes in their in their story, rather than just kind of a simplified version of some adult hero.

CW
Yes, yeah, that was very intentional.

Rasta
And so tying that to the idea, right of middle grade readers and wanting them to get things out of it, I think that’s one of the great messages that you have in the series of middle grade readers be able to see them saying, hey, I can be successful, and kind of molding them to think about ways that they can act for themselves and be successful on their own right, because of their unique position.

CW
Yeah, yeah, I think that’s what growing up is, is all about. And it’s, it’s the fun part of it honestly, is, you know, thinking of of all the options that I could come up with which 1am I going to choose.

Rasta
And I think promoting that creativity in that space to think is one of the beautiful things in this series that I personally enjoyed a lot. Thank you. So I want to talk a little bit about the Banyan books a bit more. And the idea of, you know, having a commentary about a topic that is honestly, like you mentioned before, quite relevant to what’s happening today. And kind of that idea of something that’s political right now. I know the in the United States, it’s a there’s a lot of politicizing of youth and talking about, you know, woke culture and all of this. Do you feel like your books fall into the woke category?

CW
Well, I don’t know. That’s a good question. I mean, the word woke itself, first of all, is really complicated because it’s kind of been appropriated from from African American speakers and writers from people pursuing social justice causes. And it’s kind of been turned to where it can mean something good or something bad depending on your on, you know, how you are using the word. So yeah, so that’s a little complicated, too. But as far as like politicizing, I did not intend for the book to be it political commentary, although it is quite topical. But it’s it’s not like I had a goal to say, I want kids to know about this and I’m going to change their mindset or whatever. It was just a very nice natural progression of the things that needed to happen in the book, and how I felt the characters would naturally, naturally really react to that.

CW
So I knew before writing it, that I wanted this, like this magical world where they think the regular world is the weird one or you know, maybe even mythical and doesn’t really exist. And the only way to accomplish that would be for the people have fallen behind to have no idea about their origins. So then that led to the next thought, all right, if I was running a government, and I intentionally needed to remove this information from society, how would you go about that? You can’t have people speaking different languages, they might start asking where those languages came from, you know, we can’t have family histories about people saying that they arrived on a ship from somewhere, because then people would start asking arrived from where. So to pull all of that information out of society entirely, the only way to accomplish it would be to collect all the records in which that kind of information appeared. And keep them to yourself. So so it wasn’t like I went into this with a goal of I am going to talk to kids about book banning it was just, if this world, the way it’s set up is going to happen. That’s what you’d have to do. And then what are the consequences of that? What are the consequences? I’m an entire society that has banned its own history.

Rasta
Yeah, I think that’s a interesting point of the idea of you know, you, you’re writing the story for the story. And it just kind of happened to coincide with what’s happening in the world right now.

CW
Yeah, it was. I mean, I remember the moment that I was doing this research on Alexandria, and I went, Oh, this is what the book is really about. Because that was not my goal. It was like the book was telling me what it needed to be about. It was it was really a fascinating revelation.

Rasta
What was that experience like for you, when you had that moment of going from, I’m just exploring the story to wait a minute.

CW
I feel that I have that experience, often with characters, that while I’m developing new characters, sometimes they say or do things that surprised me, I’ve even had them tell jokes that made me laugh, because I didn’t know the punchline was coming. It feels very organic, it feels like they have their own story that wants to be told. And this was really the first time that the plot itself had that kind of experience that that surprised me, where it just told me what it wanted to be. And it was not the direction I thought we were going.

Rasta
Do you find that you enjoyed that experience of discovering a plot kind of going in its own direction? In the sense?

CW
Yes, for me, that is the magic of writing. It’s just a shame that that every working day can’t be like that, you know, sometimes writing is just work and you’re getting the words down. And then sometimes it takes on a life of its own. And that is the magical part of being a writer.

Rasta
So you mentioned that that happens quite a bit for you for characters, right?

CW
Yes, definitely, that I, that during the writing process, that that character really has to feel whole and organic to me. Otherwise, anything that I might force them to do or say is going to feel flat. It that like each character has to be distinct. And so sometimes it takes a while to kind of discover who they are. So with that

Rasta
style, you know, of having them be organic, and you know, kind of discovering them as you go for yourself. Would you say that your writing style has changed much or developed over the across the books? Or do you feel like you’ve just kind of grown more into yourself? What what is your experience with writing these characters across so many books and across so many experiences?

CW
That’s a fascinating question, actually. So as a writer, I hope that I am constantly improving, you know, that I that you know, that all these hours of work and study that go into creating the books are ultimately making me a stronger writer, but I don’t feel that my working style has really changed over the course of the books. I think there’s some things that I’m more efficient at that I can kind of get things right in one draft or two versus needing many, many revisions that I’m just a little bit more efficient at getting it how I want it But overall, yeah, my, I think my style has remained the same in that I need to discover characters first, and then turn them loose into a fairly loose outline and see what they do with it. So I usually have kind of the beginning, middle and end, have a story planned out. And then everything in between is a little squishy, and I just have to see what they do with it.

Rasta
So if you’ve got like the these goals in mind, you know, the beginning middle, and you just kind of put your characters in regimented direction, and then you’ll see what happens.

CW
Yeah, once in a while I have a scene that I can see in my head very clearly that I’m not sure where in the book it belongs yet. And so I have to kind of write until I get to the point where I’m like, Oh, all right, this would be a good place to plug it in. Or, you know, sometimes I I know where we need to end up. And so I’ll get three quarters of the way through the book and go, Are we are we accomplishing this? How are we going to get to the end? I’m not quite sure we’re gonna make it. So this this third book in the series, because it had so many plot points from the previous two books that needed to be resolved. That one felt a little bit like a high wire act that I needed to make sure I got it all in without feeling like I was just cramming it in random details that didn’t belong.

Rasta
Here. Yeah. Would you say that that experience a little bit more stressful for you? Or was it still? Did it still feel good while you’re doing it, even if it had a little bit more? I guess, a stricter experience on the others?

CW
Yeah, a little higher stakes. But it was it was exciting to to, you know, at the end realized that I had actually typed up all the ends and found places for all the bits. And while there’s not a strict word limit about how long I wanted the book to be, I know the range that is appropriate for this genre, and reader age. And so I, you know, at points was like, I don’t know, maybe this is gonna get too long before I can get it all in. And so when it was finally done, that was really exciting. Go Yeah, cold it off. I put in everything I needed to.

Rasta
I imagine that feels really good to that there’s a sense of accomplishment, right of being able to do that. But with that you’re also wrapping up a series and writing the final book and the filename Chronicles. What was your experience knowing that you’d written the final book in this trilogy? Was it a celebration? Did you feel just purely good about it?

CW
Yeah, I can see how some people might feel that that would be sort of bittersweet. But that has not been my experience. It was it was just exciting. To be able to say, you know, I’ve been working for years on telling the story. And now I’ve been able to tell all of it. There’s nothing more I had to keep back. There’s no secrets I had to save for just one more, I was finally free to tell it all. So that was exciting.

Rasta
And you feel like you’ve done that with the tales. The Forgotten founders, you’ve told all the story there’s tell within? Well, the context of this this series.

CW
Yeah, I hope so. And that’s not to say that there aren’t new storylines that are left unexplored, there definitely are, for example, that in Tuesday are reading the book of the founders. And so the the audience gets to read along with them portions of the book, but of course, I couldn’t write an entire book and then cram it into a book. That’s two books, it doesn’t fit. So I had to allude to some things instead of writing them out. We had to talk about characters that you know, is that in Tuesday, presumably get to read about, but the audience won’t. So that feeling of tying up all the loose ends isn’t to say that there are no more places for the audience’s mind to go. Just that everything that was really essential to telling that and Tuesday story, is there.

Rasta
Yeah. That completeness for their stories specifically.

CW
Yeah. And and I actually like the the feeling that everything’s kind of interconnected, and that there are these other stories that could branch off and be told, but I have not told them. You know, for example, the other chapters in the book of the founders, or you know what would happen next, this book ends with Zed being 11. And Tuesday, 13. We’ve got their whole lives left to live and I’m not trying to wrap that up in a way that that dictates everything that happens to them. Just closing up this narrative.

Rasta
So do you think that you might want to come back to expand on their stories at some time in the future? Or do you feel like you’ve, you’ve done what you want to do with them, and you’re moving on?

CW
I think I’ve definitely done what I want to do with them. And my plans for next things that I’m writing are definitely not in this series. I think if I was ever going to come back to it, it might be to write the complete book of the founders and make that available separately, possibly, but I have no immediate plans to do that. That’s just the most logical step if I felt the need to come back to this at any point.

Rasta
Okay. And following up on that, you said, you’re, you know, you’re not working on anything within the world of the Falinnheim Chronicles currently. And so I want to talk a little bit about the next book you’re working on? Can you give the audience a bit of a sneak peek on it? And also, was it? Would you say the transition from writing this world that you’ve been working on for so long to then working in a completely different one was that difficult for you?

CW
Yeah, I’m excited to talk about this. So traditional publishing is structured, such that you’re kind of promoting something you wrote two years ago, and then releasing something you wrote a year ago, and then working on something else, and then thinking about the next one after that. And so I kind of have my brain and five projects at once. And there’s just all at different stages of development. So the next thing that I will be publishing after tales of the Forgotten founders is a brand new series. It’s the first book is called Melly Morton is not imaginary. And it’s about a girl who kind of has this Narnia type experience that she ends up unexpectedly in a fantasy land. And the characters there tell her that she could only have appeared there, if she is not real. So she’s thought to spend the book kind of exploring why that might be? And if she could find a way to prove that she is real, after all, and is that actually what she wants? Maybe she’d rather stay in Fantasyland. I really love the world building in it because it is international mythology. So the the world building is that the land is supposed to be home to all the myths in the world. So things that people really believe in, or did at one time, but aren’t actually real. So that just left so much opportunity. Because it’s you know, every culture on the world tell stories. So, I mean, we talk about the Tooth Fairy and about Japanese mythology and about some European mythology that maybe kid readers would already be familiar with some West African storytelling that maybe they might not be familiar with. So it’s just having a ton of fun in that world.

Rasta
It sounds like a very exciting world to be in with all these different stories to kind of feed off of that work, and their own, you know, unique ways, but still can be connected to each other.

CW
And yeah, it’s there were just really way too many possibilities that I had to, to cut off some ideas that would have been really fun, but there was just no place for them.

Rasta
So I can imagine if you’re dealing with, you know, all the mythology in the world, that’s a lot.

CW
Yeah, I couldn’t possibly cover it all. So it’s, it’s more trying to pick and choose which characters would be interesting to make interact with each other, because they all appear in very different kinds of stories. So if you turn the Tooth Fairy and King Arthur, and Nanci and William Tell loose in the same story, what happens?

Rasta
is already painting a very interesting picture in my mind, trying to get them all to work, seeing how they would interact with each other. Yeah. And so for Molly Morton is not imaginary. Is that a different age group? Or would you say it’s around the same age group as the Falinnheim Chronicles?

CW
Same age group, the character is 12. And there are some other children in the story that are roughly her age, and then some that are quite a bit younger. She has kind of a babysitting moment where she’s got to deal with some very young children. So I think the ideal reader is still going to be between nine and 12. But hopefully as like a read aloud story, it could appeal to readers that are a little bit younger and a little bit older.

Rasta
Okay, that does sound nice to have that, you know, kind of a dip down a little bit to be able to still be nursing read along experience. And with that as well. Are you putting in a message of empowerment for children in this story as well? Is that something that you strive to do with all of your writing?

CW
Yeah, I think that’s just kind of what makes middle grade, the way it is, is that it needs to be hopeful, sometimes young adult novels get a little darker. And that, you know, may or may not need to take a hopeful angle. And I feel that middle grade always does, even if serious things happen, even if things get a little dark for a while, that there is always hope and so. So that is definitely something I strive for in the messaging and the plot, and the tone, the way it’s written. So the kind of the messaging on this one would be that since Mellie, is trying to prove that she’s real. And she’s dealing with all these characters that are not real. Her experience or experiences in her life are framed as a story, the end that her decisions are continuing to write her story. So I think that’s that’s the main message of the book is that like, everyone gets to write their own story that things don’t just happen to you, you can choose.

Rasta
I think that some wonderful messaging and pretty important messaging as well to say, you know, you have agency over your life.

CW
Yeah. And Mellie is in foster care. So she begins the book, feeling like she has no agency over her life that she is not really allowed any choices at all that she’s constantly told, you know, where she will live and with whom, that’s not an experience that every child has. But I think every child can identify with that feeling of that adults tell you what to do, and you don’t always get to choose. So taking control of the choices that are available to you is a way of taking back your power that even kids can do, you don’t have to, to say when I grow up, I’ll get to do whatever I want it you can say, even though some things are outside of my control now, here are the choices that are in my control. And what do I want to choose?

Rasta
I think that’s some beautiful messaging. And I personally think that that’s a message of empowerment that isn’t just for children, even though it does fit for children, but also for even for people as they get older, remembering that message of hey, you may not have control over everything in life, but you do have control over some things and you know, own that control that you have.

CW
Thank you. Yeah, I hope that that’s gonna resonate with readers. I’m really excited to finish up working on that and send it out into the world.

Rasta
Yeah, I’m excited as well. And I’m sure that, you know, future readers will also be excited to get into the next book that you’ve got coming out to soon. And so, going back a bit to the fallen home Chronicles, you know, with book one with relatively normal secrets, it won the league of Utah writers golden Quill, and was first runner up for the grand prize for the Eric Hoffer award. And then we had the secret benefits and visibility received an honorable mention from the Eric Hoffer award and is still in the award process. And now we’ve got Tales of the Forgotten founders, what milestones are you hoping that Tales of the Forgotten Founders reaches?

CW
Yeah, I’m just excited to, to send it out and see what people think awards are nice. It’s nice to get. You know, validation, I guess from from my peers as a writer, but always it’s how the readers feel that is most important. So the greatest reward for me is to hear from readers about their visit a part that made them laugh, or there was a part that they identified with or that made them see the world in a different way. That is the greatest reward to me. So, of course, I hope that tales of the Forgotten founders goes on to win some awards too. And it is entered for some but like the League of Utah writers awards this year are happening in August, and secret benefits of invisibility and tales of the Forgotten founders are both entered this year. Because kind of a I don’t know quirk in the two Find periods they have to be written in to be eligible. They were both eligible this year. So. But yeah, so I, you know, of course, I would be delighted to see them do well, but, but really what readers think is far more important to me than getting shiny stickers or anything.

Rasta
I just think it’s kind of funny that they’re both entry at the same time. And it’d be interesting if one of them beat out the other one.

CW
Yeah, well, it’s like having both of your children competing in the same pageant or something like, I you don’t want them both to do well, of course, but they can’t both win, because they are literally competing against each other. So we will say.

Rasta
So with Tales of the Forgotten founders, you know, being the third book in the series, did that impact any of your expectations going into writing? Or how did that changed your experience of the publication process for you? Hmm.

CW
Um, I mean, it was good to feel that I knew pretty much how the publication process worked, that I was working with the same cover illustrator, and the same editing process and the same marketing process. Many of the early reviewers are people that have read earlier books in the series. So it was, it was nice to feel that I kind of knew what was going on. And these were people I already had relationships with. You know, but at the same time, I’ve never wrapped up a series before. So, you know, I am a little bit nervous to hear whether I met readers expectations. You know, you never want to feel that people thought the first book was great, and then it all went down hills. So yeah, there’s there’s still a little anxiety there of, you know, hope this is really going as well as I feel it is.

Rasta
Speaking on that topic of, you know, getting reviews and feedback from from readers, we do have a few reviews coming in from our PR list. For the Tales of the Forgotten Founders saying that this is their favorite in the series and comments along those lines, have they absolutely loved it. Is it gratifying to hear that feedback and to receive this positive feedback?

CW
It is definitely but I would say more relieving, you can do that, you know that I have put years of work into telling the story. And I feel like it was wrapping up a gift for people. And so you always want to feel that, that people are happy with the gift that you’ve given them. So glad to hear that, that the the some of the early reviews coming in have been positive.

Rasta
So with that feeling of you know, a little bit of pressure when it comes to making sure that people enjoy it. Did you feel any additional pressure about including or excluding anything in particular, the books and your writing process? Or did you not feel any pressure about the writing process?

CW
Um, not so much this time. I do remember in the second book in secret benefits and visibility. For plot reasons, I knew that Nick’s the dog was not going to be with them for a good chunk of that book. I knew that she was kind of a fan favorite in the first one. And so I was a little nervous about that, that it didn’t make sense for her to be there, there was just no way I could make it happen. But I knew that might disappoint some people. And I didn’t really have any experiences like that in this third one that I kind of knew the formula. I knew what fans had responded to and felt that the outline I had planned was going to meet those expectations. So I don’t write to criticism and I don’t write to fan requests. But based on reviews of the previous two books, I felt that people were going to be getting what they expected.

Rasta
Okay, so that that was the case. So you felt more confident about what you’re doing? And you’re like, This is all good. I just got to keep going. Yes, definitely. And with having a fan base, you know, having fans who read the first couple of books, we’re excited about the third book in the series, how does that feel to know that you have these people who are really connecting with what you’re writing?

CW
I mean, that’s just really a childhood dream, you know, that I that I have books that are very important to me in my life things that I you know, want to have a reread of every single year and that inform the way I see the world. So to hear that, that I might hold that place on someone else’s bookshelf is is just fantastically gratifying.

Rasta
Imagine that isn’t I definitely agree with you know, having written as well that desire to you know how somebody says this book was amazing and is one of my favorites, you know?

CW
Yeah, I can’t expect it to be everyone’s favorite there is no perfect book. But to hear that it might be one person’s favorite. That is just every author’s dream. Yeah.

Rasta
So with, you know, of having fans and everything? Did you think about them? And, like plant any kind of easter eggs or anything or knowledge to people who might have been reading along and paying attention? Or did you just kind of write more just a story that you thought was good without any of those nods?

CW
Um, I wouldn’t say that nods are necessarily for the readers, it’s more like callbacks to previous books. So like when a when a stand up comic is telling a joke, they might plant an idea, and then leave it for a little bit, and then come back to it later. And it kind of feels like this inside joke of Oh, I know what you’re talking about. And so I did try to put some of that in that. That maybe the characters would reference things that happened in previous books, so that the readers who have read those previous books go Yeah, I remember when that happened. They’re not, you know, Easter eggs are so much. It’s just kind of a natural progression of what the characters would be thinking about, because they have had those experiences.

Rasta
So it’s more of just a natural callback of hey, there’s things that have happened, and the character is going to be thinking about it and talking about it.

CW
Yeah.

Rasta
And so with that, you know, you’ve got the progression from the beginning of all those events that, you know, are being called back to and the progression to the end of the series with tails and forgotten founders. And you know, you’re wrapping up zeds, and Tuesday’s story, and their journey. Do you have any hope of what you want people to take away from it? Or what you think that you might want them to enjoy the most? Or what are your thoughts about that, and people’s experience of the full, you know, journey from beginning to end?

CW
Yeah, there’s, there’s a quote, I remember reading once, and I cannot think off the top of my head who said it, and it may even be one of those things that’s Miss attributed to several people. But the quote is something like that No, two people ever read the same book. So I’m not sure that I could really predict what any individual reader would take away from it, I kind of feel like when you read a book, that your experience reading, it might not be anything like anyone else’s. And that in that way, the book belongs to you. So yeah, I have no idea what people might take away from it, and possibly not the same for every person. But but just hearing that it did make some kind of an impact is fantastic.

Rasta
So you’d be looking forward to hearing perhaps what people say they took away from the book and their experience with it, and kind of sharing their excitement in that way.

CW
Yeah, definitely. So book reviews as a whole, I try my best not to read those actually, because I find that it kind of distracts from my creative process. That, you know, any criticisms people might have of the book is, you know, it’s just not helpful for me to read that, because it’s already published, it’s not going to change. And I wrote the story I wanted to tell. So I tried pretty hard not to read actual reviews. But I do love hearing from people, you know, rather, rather than saying, Here’s what I thought was good and bad about the book, which, you know, people, please do write reviews, like authors need that, so that so that other readers will know whether it’s the right book, or them for not or not, but those are for readers, those are not for me, what I do love to hear is people, you know, sending an email or connecting with me on social media to say, you know, I had fun with this, or that next reminds me of my dog or something like that. I love those kinds of comments.

Rasta
Yeah, that does sound nice to have those. And I think I understand with the reviews, and they can kind of get into your head sometimes maybe about things and what’s already out there, and you can’t really change it.

CW
Yeah, yeah. So I mean, that’s not to say that, that people shouldn’t have that kind of literary critique. They absolutely should, like literary analysis is an entire field and they’re free to do that. But I am not the audience for that other readers with the audience for that.

Rasta
That’s interesting. Take that and thought about that. But yeah, reviewers do kind of set the, their beliefs for other people to see and be and be able to determine, hey, does this fit with IBM Sun reading?

CW
Yeah, and I think sometimes, authors that are are anxious to hear whether their book is doing well read those, and sometimes they get kind of a little hot under the collar about, you know, people might have comments they don’t agree with, I just don’t think that’s a healthy way to interact with your audience, the reviews aren’t for you, they’re for readers. So I try my best just not to read them. There is a, there’s a certain amount of it that is necessary for promotion purposes, that if someone wrote a really glowing review, I’m gonna want to quote it somewhere, probably. But that Yeah, I kind of like, squint with just one eye. While I read through it real quick, for something that looks good. I try not to read them too much. And, honestly, if I was a reviewer, I think that would be a relief, like, you’d want to be able to share your unvarnished thoughts without feeling that the author is then going to read that and think badly of you, if you didn’t enjoy their book or whatever, like, people are free to say what they want to say, and I’m not. You know, I’m not stalking reviewers.

Rasta
You’re not gonna message them later, like, Hey, you completely misunderstood the story.

CW
Yeah, well, and I’ve heard of a couple authors that do that kind of thing. And they get into trouble with it, it’s not a good look. So I just stay out of that.

Rasta
I definitely think that when I was after writing my first book, I did end up seeing a lot of the reviews, and some of them are good, some of them are bad. And the bad ones did get in my head a bit. And it’s like, well, you know, they say this stuff. And some of it. I’m like, I don’t agree with this at all. How could they have this perspective?

CW
Yeah. reading the same book, how could you possibly think that, but that’s the whole idea. You weren’t reading the same book, they were bringing their own backgrounds and experiences and preferences to it. And sometimes those reviews are just that, like, people are mad that you didn’t write the book they wanted to read, you know, it’s not that what you wrote was poor quality, it just wasn’t the exact story they wanted to consume. So, you know, books are very personal.

Rasta
And I think that even those reviews can be helpful. Because if you have somebody else who’s like, I want to read this type of book, and they see, oh, this isn’t that type of book, and they end up not reading it. And they don’t have to go through that experience themselves. And somebody was like, hey, I want to read this type of book sees that and goes, Hey, wait a minute, this is exactly what I’m looking for.

CW
Yes, yeah, I follow an author on social media, that he actually posts his one star reviews as advertisements, because anybody that left him a one star review, probably the thing that they didn’t like, is going to be exactly what somebody else wants. And and then people that comment on those posts are like, Oh, well, that made me want to read it.

Rasta
That’s an interesting marketing technique. I think it could work. Sounds like it is.

CW
Yeah, well, and he writes horror. So a lot of the answer reviews are just from people that, you know, horror is not their thing. And they complain that it was too gory or too scary. And the people that enjoy horror, like gory, great, give it to me.

Rasta
Yeah. And so if, you know, moving away a little bit away from your conversation, going back to the Falinnheim Chronicles, you know, you’ve gone through this entire process, you’ve written this series, and it’s done, you know, you’re putting it down, it’s out there. It’s finished. What has been your takeaway of this experience of, you know, writing a trilogy from start to finish?

CW
Boy, um, it just feels like that these characters have lived in my head for a long time. And I feel like I’m, I’m setting them free, like, it’s a relief, that I don’t have to be the only one that knows the story anymore. That That probably sounds really weird. But But yeah, that’s how I feel about it that like that having an idea that is developed enough, that it’s that it’s a whole story and a whole world in my head is a little bit of a burden and a responsibility. And it’s just a relief that other people get to to have that story live in their heads if they want and that it’s it’s not all up to me

Rasta
That you’re no longer the sole caretaker of that that tale but rather it’s living now in the world.

CW
That I mean, that sounds kind of hokey when you when I say it out loud. That is how I feel about it that that like once the characters are developed enough in my head, that I can effectively tell a story about them. They feel kind of real in a way and like I owe it to them to tell them to tell people their story now.

Rasta
I think that’s still a wonderful motivation, you know, to write and keep writing because you have these tales, these these ideas, the stories that come to Mind these characters that come to life for you. And you get to experience them in a very real way as you write them. And it shows in the writing with these characters feeling, you know, genuine in their interactions in a way that I personally enjoyed when I was reading through the series. So I think it works.

CW
Thank you. Yeah, I hope that does. But I think humans have a very real need to connect with each other through narrative. And everybody has whether this be, you know, a book or a movie or, you know, whatever, everybody has favorite characters and favorite stories, and they connect very emotionally with them. So, I mean, in that way, it you know, that’s, that’s not strange to say, These people are imaginary. Why do you care about them? Everybody has imaginary people they care about.

Rasta
That’s definitely a cheer. And I can think of stories that I read, you know, years and years ago, where I’m like, That one character will live on in my memory forever.

CW
Yeah, yeah. And it won’t be the same people for everyone. But I think humans are just hardwired to connect to each other through narrative.

Rasta
So speaking on that, you know, of writing and why and to connect with each other? And, you know, authors, do you have any advice or tips that you would give to aspiring authors who are wanting to be part of this connection and wanting to share their stories with the world?

CW
Yeah, the the single best thing I ever did for my growth as a writer was to join a writing organization. And not just one that’s for marketing or whatever, but where you actually talk with other writers, whether that be virtually or in person. So I’m a board member of The League of Utah writers. So my group is geographically based, so that we can meet on a regular basis. And I, you know, get to know, my colleagues from Utah. But but, you know, we have zoom, and Skype and Twitter and all these ways of connecting with each other across distance as well. So you know, whatever format people find for doing that, I think that writing can feel very solitary. And you have to make a conscious effort for it, not to be solitary, to connect with other writers to learn from them, to get the experience of trading work back and forth for critique. I think that’s one of the best ways to grow as a writer is to help critique other people’s writing, and you’ll see oh, yeah, I do that too. I probably should. You’ll, you’ll pick up things that make you a better writer, when you’re giving advice to others. It’s also a lot easier to receive feedback with people that you trust and and people that you know, know how hard it is to be a writer, I guess, so that you are ready for the experience of having an editor or a reviewer, have comments that you don’t necessarily agree with you’ve you’ve already kind of thick into your shell, I guess by doing that in a safe environment. So yeah, I definitely encourage people to, to meet other writers and join some kind of professional development organization.

Rasta
I think that’s a good point with, with writing and everything that people tend to, with writing be by themselves lie all the time, even though there is a wide diverse community of beautiful writers who are encouraging, willing to work to, you know, talk with each other.

CW
Yeah, I feel like everything valuable, I’ve learned from writing has come from, you know, other writers that were willing to share their experience with me. So, yeah, that’s, I mean, I feel like that’s the fastest way to grow as a writer, something you can’t accomplish just by reading or just by doing your own work, that you’ve got to share that experience. So I encourage other writers to give that a shot.

Rasta
Thank that’s wonderful advice. And I also think that I’d like to ask you do you have any message to the fans for the Fallenheim Chronicles and readers for your future books?

CW
Oh, just you know that I’m so excited to share this story with people and I hope that the Zen Tuesday provide something that makes them laugh or makes them think or you know, the world of Falinnheim is just an enjoyable place to visit for them.

Rasta
Think that’s one message tonight? No, I for one did enjoy the waterfall on him while I was visiting through your work. And I’m very excited for the release of Tales of the Forgotten Founders I know your fans are too. And CW like to thank you today for coming on the writers triangle and talking about me.

CW
Thank you so much for having me on. It was blast.

Rasta
It’s been wonderful. Can real quick, can you tell everybody where we can find you as far as social media goes?

CW
Yes, I am on both Twitter and Instagram at CW Allen books. And then my website, CW Allen books.com. On the Contact page, you can sign up for my newsletter. So that’s where you can get updates every time I have them about new books coming out. Speaking appearances, I do writing classes for writers. So my newsletter is the best place to find out about all of those.

Rasta
Wonderful and for all of our beautiful cinnabar moths who are currently listening. Be sure to visit cinnabar moth.com to check out the transcripts and we’ll have the link to CW social media as well. Once again, CW thank you for coming on. It’s been a wonderful time talking with you.

CW
Thank you for having me.

Rasta
Everybody listening, bye bye.