Rob Creekmore & Prophet’s Lamentation (Part 2)
Rasta
Hello cinnabar moths or any kind of moth you’d like to be welcome to the Writers Triangle, Cinnabar Moth’s podcast about all things publishing and books. Today we are here with Robert Creekmore author of Prophet’s Debt trilogy. Prophet’s Lamentation, book two, is our July release. Robert, how you are you doing today?
Robert
Most excellent, sir. Most Excellent.
Rasta
Prophet’s Debt has now me as it sets the experience of her when she doesn’t have the power to fight back, and the eventual gaining of the power to fight back and that journey and that difficult process. Whereas Prophet’s Lamentation, she starts off with, I’ve already developed the skills, the knowledge, the strength, and also the magical powers to be able to kill some motherfuckers in need killin’.
Robert
And that’s that, that’s in the second. Okay. That’s in the second paragraph. Some motherfuckers need to be killed. But I You probably don’t remember. But a year ago, when we did our last interview, we talked about how I got the contract. And we were talking about CW and I had an interaction. And I said the moral of my moral of the book is some other fuckers the killing. And that’s how I got the press to to read it. That’s why they’re like, yeah, no, I’ll look at that. Yeah. Anyway. So it’s a little shout out to that interaction, and for the press to use that at the beginning of the second book.
Rasta
I think it’s a really raw line. And, you know, kids, kids Skinstore, of course, agrees. And that is part of what drew us into being inserted, because that is actually just drew, from our points of view. And it ties into the story. And it makes sense, right? It’s not just thrown in there for gratuitous violence. It has a basis for and with this experience, where we’re looking at Naomi has developed skills for her her skills to fight back and everything. And part of those skills is, of course, is the magic, or, for lack of a better word, the magic the superpower is that she has COVID abilities, abilities, yeah,
Robert
an hour to say something. I think there’s a big that. Okay, so that’s obviously a big trope nowadays. And I think it always has been, I want to give my opinion of why people like that, and why it’s not something that should just be dismissed. Most of us have no power whatsoever, correct. I mean, I have next to no power in this world, what happens happens, just like I said earlier, with the AI, if it comes and comes, I can’t do anything about it, what we want fight back against those who hurt us. But we can’t, whether it be political power, whether it be physical power, when you see someone come from the, you know, from the weak and the discarded, gain power, and use it to write things. It is cathartic for the reader or the viewer or whatever it is that you’re, you know, absorbing. And that’s why I just wanted to say that because I think I get a little bit of flack from people like where our, you know, how many people are going to have, you know, mythological powers. Well, that’s why people like that.
Rasta
Yeah, I definitely agree that it is it there is a sense of catharsis seeing people get their comeuppance that deserve it, right? Oh, yeah. You know, it’s, it’s nice for lack of candor, phrasing,
Robert
and you can’t do it legally in the real world. So yeah, it’s, it’s there’s limits, of course, and I don’t encourage anyone to be like my books are just books but this allows me to do it without it being a problem
Rasta
that there is a place for that and and that place is infection, you know, that’s right. So going into the proper sanitation with now me having these powers right, it’s something that is is your the powers that you describe and kind of the the abilities that she develops are rather unique from my perspective and looking at other mythologies and other things that I’ve read and such and so on to ask you a little bit. Where did the Indigo and kind of the spiritual guide data and the this alternate dimension everything what what are you drawing from to create this system and create these powers? What How did you come up with them?
Robert
Ketamine.
Rasta
What was that?
Robert
Ketamine, ketamine.
Rasta
Oh.
Robert
The drug. The drug ketamine.
Rasta
Yeah.
Robert
So I have a real serious depression issue, like, I’ve been hospitalized for a few times. And one of the treatments is ketamine. Okay, so yeah. So I use ketamine on a regular basis in a doctor’s office with a doctor, making sure I’m safe. I’m, you know, this is legal. But also, while I’m just using a lot of ketamine started listening to this podcast called closer to truth, which is by Robert Lawrence Kuhn. And he’s a physicist, our neuro psych, I can’t remember he’s, anyway, I think he’s a neuro Psych. And so his podcast in show is all about the nature of consciousness and cosmology. So, you know, it’s, it’s a philosophy show, kind of combined with a science show. So he has all philosophers, writers. Astronomers, yeah, the hard science people, this isn’t like, crystals, a hippie dippies. I find it very interesting, although it’s a little dry and bland.
Robert
So of course, none of that stuff is in Robert Lawrence Kuhn’s show, it’s just that he started making me think about it quite a bit. And the process of being on ketamine, off and on while, you know, listening to these, you know, astronomers and psychiatrists and other other types of scientists talk about the nature of consciousness and the observer effect and things of that nature really kind of started me thinking about creating a new mythology. So I’m really not drawing from anywhere per se. I was just really kind of made it up from scratch. But, ya know, and like, I know a lot of people use establishments, mythological characters, like vampires are terrible stuff like that, and that’s fine. But I want to be original. So I thought, Okay, let me come up with something very specific. And they are world basically like, their three layers, like you take our world is one, our universe is one, there’s a woods of lamentation, and then there is their feria the Sagittarian. Our time minders, essentially, is what I call them. But really what they’re responsible for is, is keeping the equation of reality in equilibrium. And there are 12 of them just that they’re 12 apostles, there’s a lot of biblical mythology in my work, because that’s what I grew up in. I’m definitely not religious now. But I draw on that experience.
Robert
So I guess there’s somewhere I drew from, and in their world, it’s just the 12 of them. And time is one painting. It’s the fourth dimension. And they are looking at it and making sure that everything stays in sync. Everything works. And each one is responsible for one thing or another thing. So theta, for example, is responsible for weather. And Fraida, is responsible for conscious thought and correcting issues with that. And I don’t mean individual issues that just like overall in the evolution of it. And then there was this, there was this one named Zelia. Zelia is the only one that ever left and came to the human world. Each one of them has one of 12 lights in them and those celestial type of lights allow them to basically be demigods and to affect the thing that they need to affect to the smallest nudge and degree that it needs to be affected to make sure it stays on point. All right. Well, Zelia wanted to have a daughter, oh, she wants to have two daughters actually. And she she could do that if she’s not loud. And she wanted to live in time linearly. So she came here. She eventually passed away. She passed away in the cave where Naomi escaped and so A zeal is light remained there in stasis after her death hundreds of years before.
Robert
And this is a holy set for the cirfairy. And even though they don’t visit because they can’t, when Charles died, basically, I use the the method in the Talmud for creating, which is a Jewish proto text to the Bible, to creating a Golem, which is a soulless form, which, you know, is essentially like a it’s a story that people would tell about this scary monster that protected the village, and to kind of scare the people that might attack the village, right. So I tell that entire basically that ritual happens and happenstance. And they only ends up absorbing that light. And simultaneously, a Golem is creative, which is market now she’s not just a Golem, she’s a product of there was of lamentation and what there was a lamentation R, which is the other world is, it’s not exactly hell. But it is a punishment. And it’s for those who do the most atrocious things that you could possibly imagine. They end up their child rapists, things of that nature. And the creatures there are always hungry. That was one of the creatures you saw coming and picking up the marine and rang off with him into the woods. Now these two worlds in representation, when Naomi sees them are two is a train track that represents our world. And there’s on one side the woods of lamentation on the other side, through the woods in the woods line is Sarah feria. So, in the wizard lamentation, these creatures roam constantly eat these men, some women, mostly men, and tear them apart, defecate them out, did they reform all the hunted and killed again and again and again. And that’s their natural stasis. That’s a natural order of things because that’s what they had coming. But those creatures are mindless of all Gollum. Well, Mara, she is the one who actually was she’s the one that actually had the light. The light for it was absorbed into Morrow. I’m sorry, I was wrong. She ended up gifting it to a nail way at the end because she wasn’t old enough to mature enough to hang on to it and use it. I really screwed the pooch by messing up my own books, retelling them. So yeah, anyway, so those golem completely roam and do and kill. And that ceremony allowed, once we created that was like the ones in the wizard lamentation, to also harbor and store this light and this power for Naomi when she is mature enough when she can wield it responsibly, or wield it at all. Because it’s not something that’s easy to wheel and watch her grow. And she’s stopped get to make sure they only makes it down her path and continues forward to do the things that she’s got to do, even though those things are hard. And I don’t just mean going to college. I mean, eliminating people that need to be eliminated and knowing full well that she’s going to have a very difficult life and the ensuing years. So that’s, that’s that world and of course, then that’s the other world. And anyway, and then we’re somewhere in the middle. I know it’s weird.
Rasta
So it’s sort of three separate worlds layered on top of each other. That they they can inter- interact a bit, but they never truly fully intersect with each other.
Robert
That’s right. Now the train tracks represent time. Our world is represented by means of travel and it depends on who and really only Naomi’s ever been there. But if Naomi had been a different person, in this little world, this representation between the two, it could have looked like a river it could have like a horse and carriage and a dark trail. It is a form of transportation is a form of transportation, they’re super familiar with it, it is consistent and preys on one area and never leaves it. Because the entirety of their system works on time in our world, clicking forward and clicking forward. And that’s, those are the gears of reality for, you know, the entire universe, whether it be our universe, or the other two layers of the universe, and it is their job, the Seferian to make sure that clock keeps ticking the way it’s supposed to tick. Of course, with Naomi being you know, in a situation they always in a lot of them aren’t necessarily happy with it. Because she is kind of a remainder, as I call it every time the equation. It’s like long division, you know, there’s a remainder and it keeps getting this endless equations constantly seeking perfection. And there’s a lot of animosity and, and also help, and showing that those syrup theory aren’t this monolith of demigods, they all have their own pain, his own ideas and, and how things are going to work out. So you know, she kind of is in the middle of a lot of stuff that she didn’t create. But now she has to deal with and solve.
Rasta
And so if Naomi’s experience, it’s, she’s, in a sense thrust into by circumstance, a series of roles that she then plays, and the way that it plays out for her exactly as you need is unique to her and some of the, but the reality is that things outside of her control led to her being in the position that she’s in, and then she moves forward from there, and she has to interact with these things that are otherworldly.
Robert
Yes, they’re otherworldly, and they’re not omniscient. I, there, there’s really no, it’s a world it’s more of like a deist kind of world, where essentially, there’s a kind of not interested God that set everything in motion is a way I guess I would put it is I mean, I don’t say that in the book. But that’s kind of my view on how this world, you know, their world works. Is it you know, it’s not interesting, God did did it as a project, we’re like, hegh.
Rasta
You put it in motion, now it’s good. I moved on.
Robert
And that’s why those there those creatures exist, they’re there to monitor it, and keep it working.
Rasta
And so with this, with Prophet’s Debt, and with Prophet’s Lamentation, each of them I feel as had a trajectory of, you know, circumstances and things that have been talked about in each book that’s kind of, as you mentioned, different from each other, right? You mentioned that Prophet’s Lamentation is meant to be a standalone, be able to be read as a book by itself. Even though with Prophet’s state, you’d have a lot more understanding and a lot more context for what is going on with anatomy. That’s not necessary to read a for Prophet’s Lamentation, right?
Robert
That’s right. That’s right. It’s definitely not necessary.
Rasta
And with that, I think that you also have sort of separate messaging that I get from Prophet’s stat versus Prophet’s Lamentation, where in Prophet’ss debt, you know, shines light on the horrors of conversion therapy, that condition of those types of camps and, and the experiences involved with these perfect things, but also the healing that can be found and the positivity of finding people that you can connect with and found family and having ties to people. And that kind of the positive side of finding people that are like minded or and that can care about you and that you have that mutual trust and connection to even the people that you aren’t family by blood. That’s right. In and then Prophet’s Lamentation. I feel like it shines a bit more of a active light on homophobia and the lives of consenting adults and the nuance of those relationships and how relationships aren’t quite, as you mentioned earlier, as binarias, as people might like to view them, is, are these messaging things? And are these things intentional? As you go into writing these books with the intent of talking about them actively? Or was it just a case of your writing the story, and this is what came about?
Robert
You know, I think what I write is, you know, what was I thinking about that day, and then there’s, there’s, it’s of each day, and, you know, on every, like, usually I’ll write a few pages a day. And sometimes a broader theme comes out. And it’s kind of based on what my experience was, at the time, not even necessarily experiencing what was I thinking about? I did go into I did go into a with kinda those, those ideas. And I think in the definitely with the conversion therapy thing, and it definitely was intentional and talking about the found family was definitely intention. And I expand that because family is not just blood, it can be. You can have wonderful family members, and you can have abusive family members, but family is who you make it. And I think a lot of people have to make their own family and want to normalize that. But yeah, the thing about this story, is it the genesis of why Naomi’s in this position, is her sexuality. Well, it’s the response of others her sexuality when she was young, not It’s not her sexual isn’t the cause was the response of others. But my dated, like, I have her living a life that it wouldn’t matter. It’s just incidental.
Robert
The fact that Naomi is a lesbian, and I kind of wanted that to be the case in this book, she, she could be anyone, she could be a man, she could be non binary, she could be a straight woman. It’s it’s all about love, and protecting what you love, and who you love. And she doesn’t. Just like I don’t wake up every morning and go, Oh, yeah, I’m autistic. You know, people don’t wake up and want to go, oh, yeah, I’m straight, or Oh, yeah, I’m gay. Nobody does that you just live your damn life. And that’s what I tried to go forth with showing her is this shell shot soldier and her having some sort of drinking issues and some marital problems, all relatable to anyone, really. And, and then I show like Herschel, and they Herschel and Nate best friends, because Nate is gay versus straight, personal, and they do have a relationship, not a sexual relationship, they sleep in the same bed together, they cuddle. But they are not compatible in that way. But they do love each other. And I kind of wanted to show these kind of relationships that do exist, but are taboo, you know, but, but are really healthy in a lot of ways. And so, yeah, just kind of show people live in their day to day lives. And then reacting to what what happens and, and at this point, the, their sexuality doesn’t matter. But of course, the point is, as you see them living their lives, just like people who are straight or, you know, would be living their lives, that it is just fucking incidental. You know, showing them living there as a donor, while they’re alive shows that their sexuality is completely utterly incidental. And their lives or their lives. Right. So so they you know, and that does come back to the homophobia where when it comes to like, in the lives of consenting adults and things like that, you know, like with people sticking their fucking nose in other people’s business and sometimes I feel like I wish that I think the closer you can get to someone in a friendly way, show them that everyone is basically the same in a lot of ways. Yeah, and show them the things that What they’ve made up in their mind to be afraid of or to hate, you know, if they could just see other people live in the way that they live, and they might be able to drop some of their hate. Hopefully I did that.
Rasta
I think that you did a, a wonderful job of representing these people in their relationships in their lives in a way that is authentic. In terms of like, for example, the relationship between Hershal and Nate right, at them being, you know, platonic, but them loving each other. And that bond and connection between two people that is beautiful and deserve celebration, and, like you mentioned, doesn’t really get talked about a lot or is seen as strange or unusual. And it it I feel like, the only reason it’s unusual for a lot of people is just the lack of exposure to it, rather than it actually being this super uncommon thing.
Robert
The lack of exposure comes from fear. Because why? If you were to expose someone to your reality, and they hated you, and might possibly make your life worse for it, whether that be social consequences, or physical consequences, you’ve got to keep it to yourself. And, and I think you’ll be a bit diminished for it. Because I mean, not not your fault that to some degree, your life is diminished when you can’t live out who you are, you know, so if you’re you’re not out there, they can’t be out there love you can’t be out, then that take your life has lost a little shine that it could have had. So I just normalize that kind of thing to you know, it’s a love is a multifaceted thing. And that doesn’t always include sex.
Rasta
For sure, definitely. And moving through that, you know, the experiences of your light being nourished, and you know, that often coming with fear being a fear of, for example, threat of violence in particular, right. And persecution, things of that nature. There is quite a bit of violence in the book. Do you feel like that is representative of the level of violence in the United States? Or do you feel like you exaggerated a bit? What are your feelings about your depictions of it?
Robert
Oh, violence in the United States is is very polar. There’s this public violence of the mass shootings. Because we have a multifaceted problem of one very efficient firearms, firearms that can shoot 30 rounds and 30. Well, more like 45 to 60 seconds. So those firearms can kill many, many people quickly. And we have no universal health care, we have very poor mental health care system. So there’s also the aspect of mental health care and there’s no access to mental health care if you don’t have insurance, and you can’t have insurance usually if you don’t have a job, but if you’re not mentally well, then how do you have a job to have health insurance get mental health care? Right. And so you have this cyclical issue with mental health care, while simultaneously having access to amazingly efficient weapons. Now, I want to make it clear that I’m not the kind of person that’s saying we should take every gun from every body. However, I do not think that you need a semi automatic rifle that can shoot 30 Fucking rounds out of a magazine that holds 30 rounds and put another 30 round magazine into it. I think that’s ludicrous. I personally am a hunter and I use a bolt action rifle to hunt and that’s pretty much the extent of my firearm usage I don’t really have the kind of like that just don’t have the kind of a lower to me just as a thing. I just like eating wild game and that’s like a hammer. You’re gonna need to drive a nail or I need to harvest a deer. I used to tulip at the Tula so you got those two combinations. That’s the public violence is all the TV ever, ever The day we have more public mass shootings in any other country in the world, and I think about it a lot when I’m out. Think about it, when I’m at the gym or think about it, when I’m at a restaurant, is this the day that somebody who hasn’t had access to mental health care, but access to 400,000 guns, they can probably just pick up from somebody’s house without them even knowing because they’re behind every damn door, and everybody’s house around me, I see guns, when I’m out on people’s person, they walk around, which is insane to people. In other countries, like I saw somebody with a pistol in Target today when I was getting my wife’s medication.
Robert
Then you have your private violence, which is the violence that happens between family members, and people who are in relationship with one another. And I think both have similar factors. And I think both are a representation of a bit of the rock that we have in this country. And it comes with our willingness to do something about problems, because both have mental health aspects and harm reduction. steps need to be taken to limit access to weapons that are super efficient, or weapons in the hands of people who absolutely just don’t need to have them at all. So that leases the level of violence we have, we have violence that is a more consequential, usually because of the ability to create the amount of havoc. And we have people who are living paycheck to paycheck, because they have no efficacy to help themselves economically, like we used to and part of our economy runs on the idea of having Unsafe people who are economically unstable. It’s almost expected if you look through the history of the United States. You know, we started off, I say we well, we it was my country, started off with chattel slavery, stealing people from Africa, then, of course, keeping sets and people in a subservient role with Jim Crow and lower wages, which is a reason we have the tipping economy in the US, I’ll have time to explain it, but look it up. And then of course, we have workers from China, who can work for damn near nothing to build our liberty system. Then, of course, now we have laborers who come from South America and Central Mexico, Central America, South America, Mexico, and who worked for damn near nothing just like the laborers in China, or from China did for the railroad. And when you put people in a position of abject poverty they become desperate.
Robert
And I’m not saying that the people from that are in these groups are desperate. I’m saying that that’s a representation of we want cheap to free labor, we want to create a class where they will no matter what their immutable characteristics are usually not like though, that have this unstable environment. And that unstable environment leads to mental health issues. And mental health issues lead to detrimental outcomes, not just for them their family, which is the private violence which then eventually spills over into the public violence of course, that is not a guaranteed thing. You know, that is that something that happens terrible in the home is going to spill over or that people who have violence against them are going to do layouts? Are these series of events happen so much, we’re talking millions and inevitably that that ends up can you hear Siri? Talking to me?
Rasta
I could not, no.
Robert
Okay, do you still hear me?
Rasta
I can still hear you but I can’t hear Siri
Robert
Okay, good. Good. Good. Siri. Stop. Okay. So that private violence leads into public violence with no mitigation laws, laws to mitigate the issues and the availabilities. isn’t saying weapons, and that’s something that doesn’t happen with the regularity it does in other Western democracies. Other Western democracies have the same problems we have, they’ve taken some steps to harm reduction. Whereas we are gridlocked and incapable of doing so. And I highly doubt that we will be able to do so. So it will continue on. But I go throughout my day on a day to day basis without seeing violence, typically. But it is set to burst out in any any minute. And so yeah, I don’t think that any country is more or less inherently violent or crime towards violence, it’s all the environment, that she put millions of people in and kind of mix up and see what comes out. You know, and partially,
Rasta
I think following up on that, it’s also part of the idea of, you know, even if people are as prone to violence, you know, people are equal and say, these groups of people, right, that are violent, exists in every country. But the opportunity to act on that violence is very different, right. And the tools used to prevent it or to mitigate it are different. And the results of what happens afterwards. And the things that happened before, will not look exactly the same.
Robert
We, like Australia was they had a really terrible mass shooting. And they did something about it. But the United States government is very unique, in a way the way the bicameral Senate works, or bicameral Congress. And the way the our electoral system works with the Electoral College and the fact that someone can lose the election but win the election. Well, a lot of people around the world need to understand is the majority of Americans don’t like what’s going on with the types of weapons they’re available, the lack of health care and mental health care. They want something done, but there’s just no way to come to any kind of consensus for some reason. And I don’t see that fading away until this is gonna sound very mean, until the generation that there’s a generational shift, and some of the older generation passes away of old age. And even then, I think, because of the bicameral Congress, where you have states like Wyoming with half a million people, senators, versus a state like California, it’s 40 million people, and they have two senators probably won’t resolve that issue either. Or, if you look at our Supreme Court, nine justices, five of which were nominated by presidents who lost the majority election, they lost the election, and won the election, and had the right to put someone in a position to do things like overturn Roe v. Wade, which most Americans don’t want again. I mean, you can see that if you look at Kansas, they voted, they put to a vote to outlaw abortion completely. Kansas, one of the most conservative states in the union said no, by popular vote, it just kind of shows you how kind of loopy our system is. And I think that system worked really well, when they didn’t have means of quick communication, you know, where you had to take the results of the election to Washington on horseback. But it doesn’t work anymore, or when we had 13 states instead of 50. Right?
Rasta
The scales look quite a bit different nowadays than it was back then.
Robert
It doesn’t scale up. Well, it doesn’t scale up well at all. Because it gives outsize power to a handful of people in very rural states. And not that those people shouldn’t have power but they shouldn’t have any more or less power than anyone else. That’s just like my opinion. But there’s plenty of people that would disagree with me and usually they’re the people that want to make sure that everybody can have all these insane guns and think that going to a psychologist is voodoo basically. Or they’ll use it as a blanket excuse like it’s a mental health issue. Okay, so mental health issue or what do you think that just means you can wash your hands of it? Mental health issue a private mental health issue because of public a health problem when people get ventilated by a lead in the street. So yeah, it does become your problem. And do I think that when I don’t think we’re inherently is inherently more or less violent, I think the weapons of violence are insanely efficient.
Rasta
Right. And so you think that the the result of the violence, it’s enabled more, but the violence level itself is not any different?
Robert
Right. And I think that if you look at it’s the unease, economic unease, to some degree, and it’s not all of our society, but there’s about a good portion that are, are purposely kept uncomfortable. And when they lose their job, they lose their health care, and likely their housing. If they have a gun, they’ve lost every little bit of power they have in their lives. And they’re about to go live in their car. And a lot, sometimes they turn around and open fire on everyone at their job. And no one talks about that aspect, either. Is the economic insecurity mixed with the mental health issues read by not having the economic ability to seek mental health care? Right? And of course, you say, Well, that sounds cost money, right?
Rasta
Yeah. And so very systemic issue, right?
Robert
It doesn’t probably has one behind his door, you could go steal it. I know that’s so heavy shit, man. Depressing. It’s scary, too. Because it’s a real thing. Like I really do you worry about that shootings on a daily basis.
Rasta
I think it is a sad reality right now in the United States and with what’s going on, you know, the politics and everything, that it’s, it’s a difficult situation. And it’s a very systemic problem. So it’s not something that can just be easily changed by a couple of people. Some of that has to be a lot of things need to be overhauled to really, truly fix the root cause rather than to, you know, just answer symptoms. But answering some of the symptoms, at least a start to mitigating how bad the explosions of violence are, and then working on the systems while working on the symptoms is kind of like the best way to do about it. But yeah, it’s gonna take a while for that actually fully adopted.
Robert
If it does, I don’t think I’ll see it in my lifetime. I really just don’t. Yeah, I have very little confidence, not in my fellow man and my fellow countrymen. And I say that man is in the general species. Yeah, I just have I have doubt in the way our government is structured. And that doesn’t even have anything to do with anybody alive today. Right.
Rasta
So, so, going into this, you know, your writing touches on these types of topics, right. And in your writing can be described as we Louis least we, we think of your writing as transgressive, right. And when you say that that’s very intentional, that you actively are de identified as a transgressive writer and that you you talk about these topics as an active choice
Robert
I guess so. I’ve never really thought about it. So John Milton was called what he was called a polemic. As basically like his job title, right? Like he described it as at one time. And I feel like that that’s a writer’s job is to be not necessarily a firebrand, but to shine a light on things that seem ludicrous, are to push social standards. Now, if you want to hear something really wild, John Milton’s my great, great, great, great, great, great, great great uncle. That’s true. I found that out. years ago, doing some family tree thing. And I was like, Well, that makes sense. So but I kind of feel like whatever.
Robert
Tiny bit of jeans or or came over from his brother who As much superduper great grandfather, like feel that need to do something like that, which is to, to buck the trend, but not for the purpose of some people do it for the shock value. And that’s the wrong reason. Like, he do it for a reason. You point out and just if everything is rolling fine. You know, I’m not out here going. I hate vanilla ice cream. Fuck everybody who hates ice cream? You know? Like, what would the point be? You know what I mean? Because there’s nothing wrong with vanilla ice cream. But pointing out like, Hey, you’re killing people. By doing this, or you’re harming people by doing this. Oh, it hurts your feelings that I told you that fucking care. I’m gonna tell you that harder with more force now. Right? So if that’s what a transgressive writer is or polemic is. And fuck yeah, count me, then yes, I do it on purpose. I mean, it comes from being a punk rock kid, you know, I’m doing it. And that’s what attracted me to that as a kid, as a young man is is we are saying there’s something wrong. There’s never going to be a utopia. We’re not waiting for this magical world to appear like the hippies did. We want some fucking truth. And we want to try to do better. We know we’re not going to do perfect. We know we’re not going to make a utopia. But we want to try better, do better. Let’s be better to each other. We’re going to point out the terrible things and try to do something about it. Right. But I don’t raise hell just to raise hell.
Rasta
Yeah, I think that’s a very valid view of it. And I think that part of what I personally enjoy about your writing is that, while it, it does go into some very heavy and hard topics, and it can be difficult, you know, to to grasp and tackle them. You do it in a way that still is with the humanity of the characters and the readers in mind while you’re doing it. And I feel like that’s something that doesn’t get lost in your writing. Where I feel like, as you mentioned, some people are just kind of doing it for the shock value. In those cases, the humanity behind it does feel lost to me. Right. Right. And so I personally connect with your your writing from the perspective of, hey, this is a very human experience, even if it’s not a happy one.
Robert
I really appreciate that. Thank you.
Rasta
No, it’s no problem. I do think that that core of your writing is there consistently across both of the books that I’ve read at both Prophet’ss, and Prophet’s Lamentation. And I want to change gears a bit because we’ve been getting kind of a heavy topic, we’ve been covering some pretty heavy topics just to kind of make things a little bit lighter. Recently, you’ve been doing some readings, right? From Prophet’ss to and from Prophet’s Lamentation. And you’ve been reading passages from these books to people in the know are at the bar scene. How did that come about? And how has it been reading, you know, sections from these books to an audience.
Robert
My very first book, which didn’t get published, came out in 2015. It really fucking suck. Don’t even bother with it. It’s called a fear I and I took it off the market. It’s anyway, I liked that idea. Maybe one day I’ll rewrite. But there’s this nice gentleman named Samuel Morgan Berlin. Sam runs this zine called bull spec, which is bull city speculative fiction, which is out of Durham, which is like Boulder um, you maybe maybe not have seen that movie, but we have a baseball team called the Durham Bulls. So it’s bowl specular fiction bowl spec.
Robert
He read my first book and kindly kindly nominated me for a manly Wade Wellman, which I lost. Didn’t even come close to winning. And he had my email. There’s this guy named air crew and I found to have his new book sitting on top of my computer half read. It’s called something bad wrong, it’s really fucking good as you read it. Eric Pruitt owns this bar called yonder bar, and Hillsborough, North Carolina, which is not as in the middle of nowhere as you it sounds, but it kinda is half half to the middle of nowhere. And he’s friends with a lot of other really well known writers. And he puts on these new art bars, and he lost a writer and needed to fill the position. And Sam was kind enough to recommend me to Eric, who owns the bar, almost a year ago would have been July, two weeks after Prophet’ss, debt came out. And I went and read a smaller version of chapter one, I didn’t really thought I would have been nervous. But I was it. And as I had honed this down and read it, and you know, I wrote it. And these are like my people, you know, like, these are the literary nerds who really appreciate a story and some strange stories. And it was very well received. And I was a lot of people like, bought the book for me. There are a couple of fairly well known writers who asked me for copies of book like, I signed for them. And then these people that, like, I really respected beforehand, and considered, quote unquote, famous, maybe it’s me, maybe not everybody, but and they’ve read and enjoyed my work.
Robert
And it’s a real hoot, it says, to even think about that being the case. And because they liked my work, I started getting invites to other ones. So I came back for another noir bar in Hillsborough. And I did my own noir, the bar in Rocky Mountain, North Carolina, and I’m doing another one this summer. And then I got invited to New York City to do and to mark the bar. Which I feel like I totally bombed. But other people say I didn’t vomit or whatever. But you have to understand I’ve never, I’m from the middle of nowhere. So I’m in the middle of nowhere right now. And I’ve never been to New York. And I’ve never been to a city that large. And it was a bit overwhelming. And I met some people like who are straight up like heroes, like people who are now in there one specific man who’s now in his 70s, who was Robert Redford, he has just had a TV series out and they’re like, somebody I really admire. And I’m like, standing there talking to someone I’ve known about my entire life. And like he’s his larger than life figure. And there he is, you know, you don’t get those kinds of opportunities every day. And this is Radley. And it took me a long time to find the bar because I’d be on the subway, and all that. And I think that being that was my fourth. I’m trying to think if I did another one, I think was my fourth reading was actually my stiffest and most strange reading my first one not so much. So, um, but also I go to the events as well, because now a lot of these people I consider my friends and also because there are a lot of people in the audience is read my votes.
Robert
And I go and I, you know, even if I’m not reading, you know, I go and talk to them. I went to Richmond two weeks ago to go to one I’m not reading there, but I went there. Just just to meet people like I met a couple of great people while I was there enrichment you know, I’m not going to name drop and all this because, because, you know, it’s not really my place to sit for air because it’s hair tomorrow and you know, in SAM, but it’s just been humbling to the level of acceptance. Because a lot of us are like, very like minded but I’m not sure. have really any note for say, like, most of these people are that they don’t treat me that way. They’re always kind accepting and giving me advice. And it’s just been like, you know, you find your people you know, this kind of like, when I first found like the clash, and then like I went to punk rock shows, and found people who also liked those kind To dance and, and had the same ideas that I had and political ideas and non traditional lives. Just seeing this this other world. It’s kind of like that again, you know, as an adult, it’s finding your tribe. Yeah. And it’s tragic crossover, kind of like the queer community in the punk community and definitely crossover. You know, a lot of people don’t realize that, but it is one of the few places that you could be a gay person and out is like the, like, the punk rock scene. Nobody shocking care. And if they do, then they look to the leader very long. So, yeah, it’s kind of like that.
Rasta
So you’ve been doing these readings and going to these events and such, and you’ve had the sounds like you’ve been enjoying your interactions with your fans, people who read your writing, and these other authors. And with that, you mentioned, you know, your most recent reading in New York was probably or stiffest. Would you say that? It was because he felt a certain level, perhaps some pressure from seeing these other authors that you’ve known and looked up to?
Robert
Yeah, yeah. Specifically, the man who’s he’s in his 70s, who’s, like I said, he’s been there my entire life, most of the other writers, I think a lot of people don’t get is that like, oh, man, so So don’t ever give up, he got published at 45. Like, that’s pretty normal, actually, like, most people get publicity in their mid 30s, and mid 40s For the first time. So a lot of the people I know, that are, are well known, are about 10 years older than me, maybe eight to 10 years older than me lots of time. So they were where I am now, as far as public perception. Where I am at this time, but to see somebody who movies were playing on television, when I was a child, already in syndication, is a living legend. In the arena in front of him. and stuff.
Rasta
Yeah, I can imagine just the amount of pressure that you can play on be like, I want to do really well, because I want to represent myself well to this person that I’ve looked up to. Right.
Robert
Yeah. So with the other guys, and gals, it tends to be guys, because I think we don’t tell our young women, we don’t encourage them to write as, as much as we do men, and we should. They’re closer in my age range. So they’re not as intimidating to me. I don’t know why that is. But because of that they’re just less intimidating. So I’m less kind of seized up. Even though they’re, like I said, I’m very much a note to myself.
Rasta
So I think you’re I think you’re you got your name out there. Obviously, there’s different levels to you know, how well you’re known and such but I think that your reading your the or that your readers, right, the people who have read your work, and enjoy it do exist. Right? You do have a fan base that?
Robert
Well, I do. I do. fucking fantastic.
Rasta
And with that fan base, right, include in that fan base is we have a PR list, right? And we have people from the PR list who have read Prophet’s Lamentation, who haven’t read Prophet’s set and are asking, hey, could I read Prophet’ss after having read Prophet’s Lamentation? And with that, kind of, you know, Prophet’ss does the first book and prompts limitations a second book, but they’re going the other way around? Do you feel like it’s important to read the books in a certain order or not?
Robert
Thank you.
Rasta
For the easier you feel good with people reading them either way, either way.
Robert
And so I think there’s with with sequels, the further you get into it. So I’ve got three books in the series. When you get to your third one, and I’m trying to do my best because I’m in the middle of writing it and probably a third of the way through with Prophet’s death. It’s very difficult to write something that far removed from the beginning and make it stand alone. But as far as the two that are out, or about to be out a couple of days. You can read them every either way and I kinda like to think about Prophet’ss debt when compared to Prophet’ss imitation is that you can read Prophet’ss limitation when you watch the first Star Wars trilogy. So the ones from the 70s and 80s You know, there’s a clone war, you know, all that stuff, but you don’t need to see it. You don’t want to think of prophets debt as the prequel Do you want the origin story in the nitty gritty, you can go read it, but you don’t have to, if you can’t stomach it, which some people can’t. And that’s completely understandable. It’s this harsh. Like I said, people have thrown up and a lot of people cry. There’s a lot of cry. If you’ve been abused, it’s gonna hurt.
Rasta
Yeah.
Robert
This is the politest way to put it. I mean, it’s your really into horror, then. Yeah. My favorite reviews is a one star review. This is this book is an unmitigated horror fest. It is. What I did not expect was the rest of the rest of luck being full throttle gratuitous violence. Well, that that they were talking about the beginning where there was that the beginning where it was horrible things that Naomi, but then when we get to the part where the horrible things are done happening, Naomi, I relish and love the violence that she enacts on all the motherfuckers. Yeah, to come. So it’s a real treat for someone to say is it the rest of the book is full throttle gratuitous violence? Thank you. It is, and there’s good reason for it. Yeah.
Rasta
And so with, you know, the people reading it and giving you their feedback, right, both, you know, positive negative reviews, and, you know, talking with other writers and having a fan base that you interact with, has that affected the way that you’ve been approaching writing your stories? Did it affect how it wrote how you wrote Prophet’s Lamentation? Or how you’re writing your, your next book in the series Prophet’ss death? Or? Or is it not affect dance so much?
Robert
Not at all. I mean, if you’ve read my work is some freaky shit. And there’s no way that I’m toning that down, because by now, if you’re a fan, you know, what to expect for me. If I if I were to just throttle it, that wouldn’t be me. If I were to worry about what other people think and write for them. I’m writing for committee and not for me. Now, I do write for other people to make you feel seen or write for other people to give them hope, because that is the universal theme. And it might be difficult to see when you begin reading some of it is that the purpose of all this is to give people hope. So if, if I can do that, and if and those things line up what the audience wants, and the hope can line up and they get, they literally get what they want. But I will never write to a piece which is pretty apparent, if you will, when whoever’s listening to this when you go out and you will walk by my book and read it, you will see that that is definitely not the case. And that is the death knell to any creative process. Whether it be painting, writing, singing, playing music, is a play to an audience and that’s how you get the shallow washed out. shit that you know just is everywhere. And mainstream music and literature you know, basically stuff that says nothing. It doesn’t talk about the human characters and about the human condition doesn’t talk about trials and tribulations.
Robert
You know, just it’s like eating Lay’s chips is garbage. Garbage garbage. Let me just see another let me just see another. That’s the same thing with streaming. And not that every show on TV is bad. Not every movie is bad. Not all books are bad. Most are actually pretty. It’s most are okay. But you know, when you talking about like playing to an audience, and you’re toning it down for them, then it does become shit.
Rasta
I have experienced that with some books where I felt like or some stories, content that I’ve watched and such where I felt like it was going in such a dark direction now is here for, and then they just suddenly pulled back on me what what is this?
Robert
Originality requires? peculiarity and, and also, just not caring that someone else thinks that it’s terrible because they will.
Rasta
I think different people have different tastes and such and that will happen. Sure. For for you and your writing process, right, you’ve you’ve been solidly confident and writing the story as you see it. And putting that onto the page and getting people to experience and letting people experience it right. And so, across writing, you know, Prophet’ss, debt and Prophet’s Lamentation. Have you found that you’ve had any big takeaways in terms of your development as writer? Or do you feel like you’ve been pretty much the same? What is your experience been without?
Robert
This practice of being a published writer has given me reason to write which has given me practice. When I first began with Prophet’ss, debt, it wasn’t called Prophet’ss debt. It was really just an idea. And that’s been several years kind of working on it. And the way I wrote it is in the form you see now. And when I started working with Christopher’s I think, when I really started to become become started to learn to be a good writer to, to write, in the way that that works. For someone else who’s not me to read, because I wrote it. And the process is spending those months rewriting Prophet’ss debt, I think, is what’s partially made me the writer, I had the capacity for it, I had the education. But really, it was that exercise for those as well, half a year, it’s a su to become the writer I am. And, of course, I rewrote it twice after. And then it’s just from then on, it’s just practice, you know, having written another full length book, I practice while I’m writing, and then I rewrite. So all those hours spinning in this fin process and making my brain come up with creative ideas, and being able to delegate whether those are good ideas or not, especially having kids tell me they’re not, and then try to internalize that. Because his fears usually right. And I’ll say that because she Kisstopher’s like, the the publisher, but because Kisstopher has a really keen understanding of what the audience sees, and how to give the audience what you’re trying to say. And a package that they can understand from the get go. Which is something I was not doing well, at that time, which I still struggle with, like, the finished product you see in the book is not you know, it’s not you know, what comes out in the beginning. Just practice, practice, practice, and forcing myself to be creative, forcing myself to write a certain way and constantly judging myself. This is probably why writers have a lot of pressure issues.
Rasta
Yeah, I think if you’re constantly having to, you know, sort of build something up or to tear it apart again, that can take its toll right?
Robert
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I don’t know it’s the chicken or the egg thing is depression has a certain play inside your neurology that’s not related to your creativity. But there’s there’s neurological presets are somehow immutable to one another. Because they’re all like, writers on average, twice the sounds, it sounds bad, but it usually is around twice the suicide rate of the normal population publish writers. Yeah, so yeah, it’s not coming from that and, but what I’m saying is there’s a there’s definitely a connection to self critical and self critical. That goes into the ability to become a good writer, as long as you don’t languish into self criticism and just tried to make it better.
Rasta
So you know, you’ve gone through this process of writing two books now with that are being and published Well, one of them has already published one is about to be released for the public to buy and read. And with these experiences, you know, use the you developed mostly practice for your writing skills and you know, more honing your craft, right? For those people out there who are aspiring to become authors who are aspiring to become writers, what would be a piece of advice that you’d want to give them to kind of help them along their path with that
Robert
I’m gonna give you the same advice that came to my head when I was doing my last interview? Which is, don’t listen to the haters, even the ones in your own head. When you’re the service, right, exactly, you should listen to your own criticism and try to try to fix what you think needs fixing. But the self hatred in saying this never going to be better. Everything’s always going to be like this coming from your own self is normal and natural, but do you wallow in it? You know, it’s, you’re never going to advance as a writer. And as you listen to people and write what they want to hear, just like we’ve seen in writing to an audience, you will also fail because you’re not being you. And art is a personal expression.
Rasta
I think that’s wonderful advice and beautiful guidance for aspiring authors, you know, to find that balance between being self critical, and accepting the development of your work rather than feeling like it’s lost. And, you know, being capable of hearing what people say, but not letting it determine your path for your creativity.
Robert
That’s right. And so I’m still an aspiring author, come on.
Rasta
You say that, but you’re about to have your second book published. So that’s true. But you know, there’s there’s levels to aspiring author, you’re still aspiring to further writing and greater honing your craft.
Robert
And I think that I’m good with that. My goal is to write a book every year until I die, that I am going to try. That’s my aspiration. Definitely nowhere near death. So I’m sure that something will come up one day.
Rasta
And for now, though, I’d like to thank you for talking with me today and for being on the rightest triangle. And I’m really excited for the release of Prophet’s Lamentation. I know your fans are too. And so thank you for coming on. Thank you for having me, Rasta. And to everybody listening, you know, thanks. Thank you to all of our beautiful models for checking in tuning in to the writers triangle. Be sure to buy private Lamentation available everywhere books are sold coming out this upcoming Tuesday. Real quick, Rob, can you share with everybody where they can find you as far as social media?
Robert
I lost my first Twitter account, because I told Elon Musk, the Matrix was a trans allegory and didn’t belong to him. And so now I have a new one is author Creekmore. So like, like a novelist, author, Creekmore. On, on, on Twitter. All one word authorCreekmore.
Rasta
Okay, wonderful. Thank you very much for coming on. And thank you, everybody, for listening. Be sure to visit cinnabar moth.com to check out the transcripts or also the links to Rob’s Twitter and for the links to Prophet’s Lementation and Prophet’s debt. Once again, Rob, thank you for coming on today. It’s been wonderful having you.
Robert
Thank you for having me.