The Writer’s Triangle Author in Residence Interview: Katie Groom

R
Hello cinnabar moths or any kind of moth you’d like to be. Welcome to The Writer’s Triangle, Cinnabar Moth’s podcast for all things publishing and books. Today we’re here with Katie Groom our 2024 quarter one author in residence for Cinnabar Moth Literary Collections. Katie, how you doing today?

K
Fantastic. I’m doing wonderfully how are you?

R
I’m doing good too. Allergies have been bugging me a little bit. But otherwise, I’m feeling great.

K
I hear ya.

R
So getting right into it, today we are going to be talking about diversity in writing. And I was wondering, when did you first learn about the concept of diversity? And what does it mean to you?

K
So I’m going to be vulnerable, and admit that I actually didn’t learn about diversity until way late in life. I come from a very small town. In Pennsylvania, where everyone looked the same, all of our teachers look the same. All the people that worked at the grocery store look the same, it just wasn’t a thing. Like, diversity wasn’t a problem, cuz there wasn’t any. So I guess it was a really big problem. And when you come from that sort of situation, you don’t realize, like anything about that, you know, and I went to college in the in, I went to a small college in a town nearby, so everyone looked the same. In fact, a lot of the people I went to high school with went to the same college, I went to the word work in the same area. And I started to meet people that looked different than I did or had a different sexuality or grew up differently, but it didn’t click. And then it actually wasn’t until I moved to Birmingham, Alabama, from a small town in Pennsylvania that I really started that that small town in PA that I really started to learn. And I was in my 30s when I made that move. So I’m gonna be honest, that I don’t buy it when people say, well, that’s how so and so grew up, or they’re too old to change or learn. Because when I moved to Birmingham, I learned that there was more diverse more to diversity than race. And like, even though I knew people, you know, that had a different sexuality than me, or that didn’t fit the gender binary, it just never had clicked with me until I moved here. And I’m still learning, and I will be learning for the rest of my life. And I’m okay to admit that. So, you know, so diversity, didn’t start learning about it, you know, really in realizing about it until, like, the last 10 years of my life.

R
And so with that experience of learning about it, right. What would you say it means to you, when we think of the concept of diversity? What has your understanding evolved to, from, you know, the initial one of, oh, people have different races to what it is now.

K
There’s like, mental health and like, mental health is a big deal to me. And I feel like, you know, diversity isn’t just appearance, it’s a lot of different things. You know, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, like, you know, there there can be, how am I trying to say, like, you know, like, for me, mental health is a big part of what makes me different from everyone else, you know, diversity is difference from who you are, like, you know, what would be diverse to me is diverse is different than what would be diverse to someone else? You know, like, I don’t even know if I’m explaining that. Right. But, you know, and there’s also a difference between diversity and inclusion. And I think sometimes diversity for things like organizations and companies is a buzzword that they like to throw around. But are they really including that those, you know, people that are diverse in their decision making process and things like that? Or is it just something that they throw around to look good on paper? Like, you know, what I mean, so hopefully, I kind of answered that.

R
Yeah, I got a better sense of it for your, I’m gonna say my understanding is the con- the concept of diversity to us just is the fact that people have differences, both like physical, mental, and it goes beyond just the the common spectrum of talking about race. And it goes on to other things like neurodivergence, it goes into things of sexuality, it goes into all these different aspects which people can differ. And oftentimes, when it comes to companies, they’re just like, well, we’re so diverse. But why are they – is it tokenism? Is it, is it performative?

K
Well, yeah, and I mean, if you think about that, I mean, my day job, my day job is working in human resources. And I can tell you that most organizations only track two things, maybe maybe three, if they’re talking about diversity and that that is race, age and gender. And they usually only do the, the binary genders. So like, that’s not even, you know what I mean? So to me, I think there’s a lot more work to be done here. You know, that kind of thing?

R
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I do agree that there’s a lot of work to be done in not just in industry, but also like socially, but we will go into that a little bit later. I’ll ask you, for you personally, when it comes to writing, right? Do you consider yourself to be part of diversity in writing? And if so how are you contributing to it?

K
So that’s a tough question for me, because if you look at me, I’m a white female that was raised in a middle class family, you know, and we go back to what I said before, I didn’t realize for a long time that diversity was more than that, you know, but diversity isn’t just about race or gender identity. There’s sexuality, mental health, it can even be about size. You know, I can talk about like, for myself, my sexuality, it’s pan, for those of you that don’t know what that means, you know, I’m happy to just explain that I can be attracted to any and all of the genders, you know, but do I feel that that means that, you know, I’m contributing to diversity and writing with those things? No, because I haven’t included that in my work. And also, for me, my sexuality has never really been a pain point for me, because I don’t really talk about it a lot. If I’m honest, it’s not been something that has been something that I’ve, you know, talked about, and I really don’t feel like, I’ve been not included in things because of it. But there are two things that over and over and over again in my life that have been pain points for me, and they’re my mental health and my size. And I do include these things in my writing, because and I do feel that they are diversity points that sometimes get ignored. You know, with mental health, I went through, you know, Hugh’s grief and fixed moon, and that carries over into gibbous moon. And that was actually hard for me to write and sit with, you know, that struggle to get out of bed that struggle to take a shower, because depression isn’t just sadness, and you know, people need to learn about that it’s chronic, you know, so like, to the point where sometimes, like I would even consider for myself, you know, getting out of bed and brushing my teeth is like self care, little things, you know, and I’m happy to have included in that in that book, that he didn’t take a shower for weeks that his hair was matted. His depression and his grief didn’t make him any less powerful. It didn’t make him any less wonderful. It didn’t make him any, you know, less of who he is. It didn’t define him. It’s just a part of him. And he’s not completely over it. And he may never be, you know, but he’s got a support system and things like that, you know, he’s still a badass werewolf, the same that he was before he went through that, you know, and that’s the same thing for me, like, I’m still awesome, that doesn’t define who I am. And I think with diversity, sometimes people let things define who someone is. And that’s, that’s not, that’s not right. You shouldn’t be doing that, you know. And then I talk about size a lot because this hits home for me hardcore. Because when I look at romance covers when I was growing up, it was like Fabio and some Model S woman with long hair and no waste, you know, and I’m 40 now and I still struggle with this and body positivity is like my thing. I’m always trying to be like, you know, love your body where it’s at right now kind of thing. And it’s vital. It was vital and required for me that Zoey when I created her was overweights. Um, you know, that this big, bulky bodybuilder type man was into her and it wasn’t because he was objectifying her fetish. This was like all like required. And also in this, you know, that she was a redhead and not seen as either a sex symbol or a quirky sidekick. You know, so I don’t know, it’s not a video interview. So people not may not know what I look like. But um, I am a morbidly obese redhead. You know, if you haven’t guessed it. And so on top of that, like the decision for Zoey to have powers, I refuse to make those powers anything related to her size. You know? I didn’t want to reduce her to that, but I wanted those to be characteristics and, you know, she was destined to be a powerful witch that could harness the powers of the sun, even when it wasn’t shining, you know, kind of thing and she can mess with time so she could mess up your weekend. Like, you know, those kind of things that aren’t really talked about as diversity. You know, those things are diversity for people to you know, depending on on, you know, what you live, you know, everybody’s lived experiences are different, you know? So yeah.

R
I definitely do think that is a good point, though with going into talking about diversity expanding beyond what is often talked about in in terms of talking about diversity, and let’s go into the diversity and representation of people who are different in ways that are less talked about. For example, weight and size and everything is something that’s kind of just a bias that a lot of people have in terms of their writing. And that may not even they may not even be aware of, in a lot of cases, where there’s something I’ve had, I had the discovery of one of my own writing, when I was thinking about my characters, I was like, wait, why don’t I imagine any of my characters being super short, or being super skinny, or, or fat, where they’re always kind of in this middle ground in my head. And that’s something that I as a writer, when I was first starting off, I didn’t realize I had, and I had that discovery, I was like, wait a minute, I’m, I’m learning myself as a writer, and I’m not representing people in reality. Right.

K
Right.

R
And so with that, I, you know, I had to, may have that discovery myself, just because it’s not something I thought about. And so that, that form of representation of things is kind of the key to diversity to me. And I feel like, from what I’ve heard, you feel it’s the same way of getting these getting people to understand and see the experience of a variety of different people and their various forms. Doing their stuff.

K
Yeah. And like, I would love like, I would love it, if like somebody that has never seen themselves in a character before could see themselves in one of my characters, you know, there, there was a very intentional choice for me to never describe in the Cardinal Moon Saga, what Cade looks like, even though I do know, in my head, what Cade looks like, I wanted that character, they are non non binary, and I really wanted anyone in the world to be able to see themselves in that character. So like, it was just, you know, it’s just important to me that anyone can see themselves in my work somewhere, you know, you are you are not left out of this world, you know, that that magical world, you’re not anyone can be part of that world.

R
Makes a lot of sense to me, in terms of providing this room for people to identify with the characters in your writing. And I do understand that forum diversity pretty well. And so following up on that, when it comes to expanding beyond, you know, the, the individual and going more towards publishers and editors of literary magazines and such, what do you think they can do to help increase diversity in publishing, and to increase this form of, you know, having characters and identities that are representative of the diversity of people?

K
So I touched on it a little bit before, but there’s a difference between diversity and inclusion. And, you know, diversity is like, checking a box, you know, sometimes, you know, for some places, and in publishing, I think sometimes they do that, too. They’re checking a box. But do they include those diverse voices in the conversation, like when I was discussing, like, when I was learning, like learning to learning more about diversity and inclusion and things like that? Was the way it was described to me, and it really hit for me is like, Sure, you’ve invited them to the party. But are you actually asking them to dance? You know, so will they ever come back? You know, that kind of thing. If you don’t ask them to dance, you know, at this party, they’re just going to be hanging out in a corner all day, you know, they’re not going to want to ever come back and hang out again. And that’s really not, you know, that’s not really having that spirit of diversity. That’s just checking a box, you know, so we need to not only have diverse writers, but we need to give them that voice. We need to support their work, put it out there. Yeah, these writers could be signed and their work could come out. But if it is not backed and marketed and given the, you know, the space to be found, that’s not really including them, you know, inclusion is key that’s like, to me almost more important, because it’s almost like a step. Like you okay, you get the voices there. But now you have to actually give those voices, the backing, you know, so I think giving them the backing, that’s what publishers and editors need to do. You know,

R
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense of there. There are a lot of cases where, you know, you’ll have, let’s say, you know, a virus author, they get their work put into a literary magazine or, or they’re published their books being published, and then it just doesn’t get any follow up on it. And cite Yeah, they, they, they published it. But then Where’s where’s the love? Where’s the any attention or real support for? Where’s the? Where’s the signal boosting on this so that it can actually reach an audience? Yeah,

K
cuz it’ll never reach the audience that it’s intended to, if you don’t do anything about it. Like if, if you just ticking that box? I mean, that’s just for show. You know? Yeah, that’s just so you can put a line on your website that says, we have x amount of this, you know, okay, great. What are you doing about it? What are you doing with it?

R
And that is, that is a good point. I hadn’t thought of it in that way of the difference between diversity and inclusion. But that is a really good way of describing it, where they are including, quote, unquote, diversity. Well, they are allowing diversity, but they’re not actually including diversity. Yeah, and that line is interesting. I hadn’t thought of it that way.

K
That’s the Human Resources training part of it for me.

R
And so we at Cinnabar Moth, we do have that focus on diversity. And, you know, we feel that it raises the voice of all voices, because mainstream point of view is already known. And we want to promote and really support the voices of diverse authors and and have those voices be connected to their audiences. What would you say to the people who argue against diversity and claim that focus on diversity, silencing mainstream voices and points of view or, or taking away their opportunities or things of that nature?

K
So I actually get the pleasure. And those are air quotes, right there pleasure. Having one of these conversations a week, I swear, like, every week, I have to have this conversation with certain people, you know, that they just don’t get it, you know, and I love these people, and I want to continue to educate them, and I want to learn with them, because as they learn, I’m learning too. So I’m gonna give like, an example is I was explaining the story of a book. And that had been become a movie, you know, what I was thrilled that it got made into movie because it was one of my favorite books. And I explained the plot to someone without using the gender of the two main characters, and that person’s like, Oh, I’m totally gonna watch that. And then they found out that both the main characters and it’s a romance were male, and it changed everything. They’re like, I don’t have I shouldn’t have to see that, you know, blah, blah, blah, that kind of thing. And, and I just asked them how they felt that people, you know, you know, gay men would feel if having to see you straight couples kiss all the time. And that caused them a moment of pause, and they brought up well, that’s not normal. And that brings me up to like, my next point is what really is normal or mainstream? Is mainstream, like, who decides what that is? Like? Who picks what’s mainstream? You know, if your lived experiences are the only normal or mainstream lived experiences, then no one else is normal or mainstream? Because no two people live the exact same experiences every day. You know, that’s, to me. It’s It’s akin to saying, like, real women have XYZ experience? Well, no, because not every woman has that experience, you know. So like, I don’t even like defining normal and mainstream because it’s a social construct. And I know, I sound like, you know, way off in like, but if you go to another country, the normal or mainstream is different than it is like I’m in the United States, you’re, I believe in Japan, like wildly different countries wildly, you know. And then also, like another point that I like to make to people when they are like, well, now they’re silencing my voice. You know, I’m always like, well, if you’re complaining about your boy voice being silenced, perhaps you need to step back and like, ask yourself, why someone asked me to shut up for a minute, maybe we heard enough to sit down, let someone else speak. I don’t know. You know, like, that’s the other thing. You know. So I guess my whole point is what’s really mainstream and normal, because, you know, if you grew up, you know, with two moms, that’s not going to be abnormal to you to see two women kiss on TV, like, Do you know what I mean? So you know, what’s normal, what’s mainstream to you won’t be the same to someone else. And if you don’t like it, you don’t have to read it. You know, you’re missing out on great stories or great movies, and that’s fine, you know, but you do you. You know. And if again, if you’re complaining about being silenced, think about why maybe why people want to shut you up. Like, I and I’m gonna, you know, you might have to bleep this out. But like I said to someone, cuz someone kept saying to me, I’m not allowed to have an opinion. I’m like, No, you’re told totally allowed to have an opinion. But I’m allowed to have an opinion too. And my opinion is that your opinion is shit, and that you’re an asshole. You know? So it’s like, you know, that’s just kind of I kind of went on like a rant there. But that’s what I say to people when they say that it’s like, no, just know. Yeah, and I’m not in. But the thing is, here’s the thing, I’m not going to convince anybody, they’re not going to convince me to their side, either. You know, so I, a lot of times, you know, I say my piece. And if they’re done, if they don’t, if they want to continue, or you, I don’t have to go to every argument that I’m invited to, you know, so I just, you know, I say my piece, and it’s that little bit that I just ranted off right there. You know, that, that that’s what I say. And if they don’t like it, that’s fine.

R
Think you make great points when it comes to the concept of mainstream itself being kind of just fake to be in with a lot of ways and not really a genuine representation of humanity, right? Because, like you mentioned, Japan, and the United States, completely different countries with mainstream here and mainstream, the US looks very different.

K
I think about like the bathroom situation, but to like you go to a public restroom in Japan versus the one in United States. I mean, I don’t know how the United States bathrooms are considered considered normal life. I mean, it’s just something as simple as that. And I know we’re talking about diversity, but like, let’s just take it down to something basic, you know, like that. It’s, you cannot sit here and define what’s normal, you just can’t.

R
Yeah, and I do think that that’s a really good point is to bring up the fact that normal is just whatever you’re used to. And what you’re used to and other people are used to are going to be different. And one of the key things when it comes to diversity is accepting that difference as something that just naturally happens and naturally occurs. And, and not getting upset about the fact that oh, this person’s normal isn’t the same as mine.

K
Yeah, it’s yeah, we’re all different. Yeah.

R
And so with, you know, the concept of, you know, differences being made. And I suppose, in some ways, the arguments that happen from that, that does lead to a lot of emotional turmoil when it comes to people in their interactions, right. And so, with that, I imagine, because you mentioned that you you’ve had these types of arguments for that does bring up a lot of emotions for you, as we saw from your impassioned discussion just now. And when it comes to all these emotions, I noticed with your writing, you do also bring that emotionality to your writing as well, where you talk about these emotions, the experiences, pain loss, and these heavier topics, is is your focus driven from your experiences with dealing with people and seeing people and the people that you’ve been around, or what was behind that.

K
So like, I think when I think about, like, for me, like pain and loss and things like that, I haven’t lost a lot of people that are close to me. But I’ve had pain and loss in different ways. Like, I’ve been bullied, like, all my life to the point that in high school, I was considered at risk for self harm. So I was like, on that watch lists, you know, and like, so, like, someone bullied me so bad that they like, made like this list, and like printed it out. It was such a waste of office supplies, like they printed out this huge list of like, 92 guys that I had allegedly slept with, and, and were trying to paint me as, like this awful person, just because they were mad at me for something. I’m like, whatever, you know, at that point, you know, so like, I would lose the opportunity to have friends for whatever reason, you know about this? And, and it would never make sense to me. I mean, even as an adult I was in the workforce and was the night of promotion one time because and I quote, how can I trust you to manage a team? You can’t even manage yourself because you’re fat, you know? And so I felt a lot Yeah, I felt a lot of pain from that, you know, and I would desperately want to be liked and I would be a people pleaser and, and I would lose a lot of myself. And and I think a lot of my loss is actually a loss of myself. And it wasn’t until I got a divorce that I started to figure out who I was and take care of myself before others like learn that, you know, you can’t take care of others until you take care of yourself. You know, and you know, let me say that like that divorce my choice But I still grieved because I lost an entire future that I had dreamt of and hoped for, you know, and I realized about a year before I actually had the courage to take the leap to take get a divorce, that that dream of that future that I had was waning anyways, you know, I agree for a long time in my writing has definitely been a healing process through that. So yeah, like personal loss and touching our pain, I do touch on that a lot. And it does come from a very deep personal place. You know, sometimes I look back and I’m like, wow, this stuff is ridiculous. You know, and I look back now and I’m like, man, I’ve just learned so much. And I feel like when I write, it’s another learning opportunity to like, get, you know, delve into those feelings and to get out, you know, to learn from them again, and things like that. And hopefully, when people read that kind of stuff, you know, my work, and maybe it’ll help them a little bit too, you know, and I do hope for that.

R
So it sounds to me like, in a way, the writing has been a way for you to sort of bleed out some of that negative experience into process and also to help process it.

K
Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

R
That so I for your writing process and your journey did. Were you writing long before you got into writing about pain and loss? And was it just something that you’re always doing?

K
Oh, so like I wrote my first book when I was five. It was like four pages long about a bunny that wanted to dance. So he learned to dance illustrations, not good writing has improved. There’s illustrations, no have nots. So my mom actually found that book and gave it to me when for Christmas here, and I thought that was really cute actually have it displayed in my house. And anyways, you know, I have written short stories and things for a really long time. I’m 40 now. And so 35 years, you know, as soon as I could pick up the crayon I’ve been doing it because because it was written in crayon, that bunny story, the bunny who dances it was written in green and red crayon. I’ve been writing a long time. And but you know, oh my god, what the question was my journey? Have I been writing a long time? Yeah, but before fixed moon I never wrote anything. Like a book. I had written fanfiction and I had been part of message boards that were like literary where we write you know, and we write together you know, some stuff some stuff, we wouldn’t we’d write on our own and just share it. You know, but, you know, no one would know it was me because I never used my real name on any of it. But yeah, like, I would say with loss and stuff like that. I mean, I was always had a flair for the dramatic. But I think once I started writing actually Cardinal moon when I wrote that short story, I think that’s what really kicked it into high gear and I felt connected to it and I was like, Oh, this is the right thing to write for me. This is what I need to be writing about. Way off course with the bunny

R
that’s an interesting origin point to you know, have this sort of light and kind of happy sounding I assume the bunny who dances a happy book I don’t know.

K
Is he wanted to do I wish I could remember it I have a display but it’s like in a case but he wanted to dance his friends made fun of him. And then he just says like, I’m going to dance anyways. I mean those things words but that was cut out when

R
we have you know, the sweet little beginning you know, you five years old, sharing a story that you thought of right? And now here you are 35 years later, and you’re writing obviously much, much longer stories, more developed stories with more developed characters. But you’ve had this experience and this variety of experiences to feed from and to draw from in order to bring your stories and your characters to life. Yeah.

K
So the bunny story did have a beginning middle and end like

R
So you had your beginning your your basics already there?

K
Yeah, I was I was ready. 10 words long, but you know

R
And so with with that experience, you mentioned that you’ve been in message boards, and you’ve been in a variety of different spaces with your writing. Have you found that the world of publishing has been welcoming to your point of view and voice?

K
Yes, but you know, I think it’s because, so that I, I just, I found a team that gets me and I mesh well, with y’all, you know, so like, cinnabar loves my writing and my ideas. So I feel like, y’all feel them in a way and it just hits you like, in the bones or something, you know. So I feel like the people that work on my stories and my books, like believing them, they want them to be successful. So, you know, that being said, I wish the rest of the world would kind of get on board with indie publishers and self publishing, because, you know, those of us that do this, we’re just as talented if not more than some of the writers that are published by the big publishers, you know, but like, yeah, for me, the world of Publisher has been welcoming, because to be quite honest, I’ve only had experience with one publisher that loves me, you know. I mean, because I think the big thing that would surprise people is that I only ever had one rejection. And that rejection came from another publisher. And it was an initial, the first very first version of what would someday become fixed moon. And that publisher, even though they rejected that book, they gave me such incredible feedback, that when I finally wrote Cardinal moon, that it was ready, because I took that feedback seriously. So yeah, but like I said, Yeah, have you all been welcoming, of course, because you liked my writing. Experience, I really, really have. So yeah,

R
We’re happy that you’ve been able to have such a wonderful experience with Cinnabar Moth in the world of publishing. And with your experience, you’ve now written two books, you’ve got several short stories, and you’ve developed your writing over you know, years and years of experience. And you have honed your, your style and everything, what would be a piece of advice you’d give to fellow authors who like, like, you are not in the mainstream and and that are, you know, doing Indian such, and wants to write about topics point of views that often be overlooked in mainstream publishing.

K
Do it and believe it, because one of the things that I had to work on was not saying, like, oh, it’s not that good, and things that are like that, you know, because you have to believe in your own work first. Because if you don’t believe in your work, no one else will. Now like that being said, I’m not saying don’t accept feedback, I’m saying, believe in your work, and what you know, it can be. And you know, if you have to love yourself first for anyone else to and that goes for your work. So that’s my biggest thing is do it and believe in it.

R
I think that’s really good feedback. But is is important to believe that you have something that is people are going to appreciate, like, you’re going to have an audience. And it may take some time to find the audience. But there is an audience for what you have to give. And it’s valuable to put that out there.

K
Yeah. And sometimes your audience isn’t going to be what you expect. Also, I found out that with fixed moon, there was the Hollow Earth and flat earth like group that really actually liked the book a lot, because it talked about portals and things like that. And that was very unexpected to me. But I had found that out and I was like, Well, I’m honored. You know, even though you know, I don’t necessarily prescribe that i However, do love a good Hollow Earth or flat flat over theory. I do. But I’m, you know, to me, I just was like, wow, that’s really neat. They love the fact that there was portals in there. That’s what spoke to them, you know, so I was like, that’s cool. Thank you, you know, so just know that your audience might not be what you expect, but everyone will have an audience, you will and just believe in it, it will happen. It will just do it and believe in it.

R
Thanks. That’s really good feedback. And that’s also a really interesting audience to have found.

K
I get a kick out of it.

R
So going go into you a bit more, you know, you found an interesting audience. But for you as an as a writer and as an author, what is your goal? Are you hoping to have it be a career or are you looking to spread awareness?

K
So my goal is to be able to right all the time and have a little stone cottage in the Scottish Highlands, we’re dealt out my dog, and I can just be. In all seriousness, my goals for writing have been exceeded, I wanted to publish, and I did. And then I wanted to publish a series and I am. And then I wanted that series to become a saga. And I will have that. But also on another scale, I wanted to have a plus size heroine I created that I wanted to make it okay to be depressed or have a disability, that this doesn’t have fun, it doesn’t define you, it doesn’t make you less, I wanted to make a character that everyone can see themselves in. So all of my expectations have been exceeded. And at this point, I’m you know, I just want to keep doing it. Like I just want to keep writing and having fun with it. You know, and that is really the goal here. Yes, though, I would love to be able to write full time. But you know, I am not going to put all my eggs in that basket right now. Because I also love my day job. So, you know, I wouldn’t really want to give that up, either. But yeah, of course, I’d love you know, to write all the time and have a career of it. But all of my realistic expectations have already been exceeded. And I just, it’s I’m thrilled. You know, every day when I think about it.

R
That does sound very exciting. And it sounds to me like you would like that little cottage in the Scottish Highlands.

K
Oh, no, I totally would. Yeah, oh, no, that’s that’s like the ultimate dream. But you know, you know, we’re not gonna hold our breath.

R
If it happens, I think that will be an awesome thing to have happen. So it’s not off the table. It could happen.

K
We could have it could happen. I mean, I’ve been to Scotland, I’ve been to the highlands, they the best tasting water ever. It’s a weird thing to say but like they do and I just loved it. I when I left there, I think I left a little piece of me behind. And it’s you know, I love Scotland so much. They think that’s part of the reason that he was Scottish.

R
So that’s a fair point. And water definitely does have a flavor. So I’m with you there on. There is good water and there’s bad water.

K
Oh, no, their water is the most delicious water I’ve ever tasted in my entire life. I love water. It’s just the most delicious if you ever go to Scotland, you can drink their tap water. It’s delicious. So yes.

R
Well, here you go for anyone listening. Fellow – if you’re a fellow water enjoyer now you know the recommendation.

K
Glowing five star review on Scottish tapwater.

R
So bringing it back a little bit to talking about publishing as an industry, right. And as a whole, do you feel that publishing as an industry understands the level of diversity with your community and with your background? Or do you feel like it’s missing it? as

K
a whole? No, I mean, look at the New York Times bestsellers list at any given time. That’ll tell you, I just think, I think a little I think I touched on it earlier. Inclusion, its diversity is a checkbox included is the action, you know, that you actually take, and I think they need to work on that. So yeah.

R
That is a good point with it. And so with that, let’s say you had one message that you could get the publishing community to hear and understand, would it be the message of inclusion? Or would it be something else?

K
Yeah, it would be like, I just want to the difference between diversity inclusion, you can say all day that you want to have a diverse team or a diverse group of authors. But if you don’t include those voices in your marketing and push them to the front, are you really doing injustice? Or is it just lip service? Like, are you really making those voices heard? Or are you just doing it to check that box?

R
Do you think the difference between empowering those voices and actually giving them a platform and giving them the support for them to function on the same level or as the voices that have already been supported? And the you know, the quote unquote, mainstream is an important thing to have happen? And, and so on that note, I think that is a wonderful message. And I’d like to thank you Katie, for talking with me today.

K
Thank you for having me.

R
Can you tell everybody who’s listening where they can find you on social media, different websites and such?

K
So on the website, formerly known as Twitter or X, I’m Katie_ Writes_ for GoodReads Instagram and TikTok and I need to work on my TikTok. I’ll be honest with y’all. It’s KatieGroomWrites And then for blue sky it is KatieGWrites.

R
Wonderful. And for everybody listening, be sure to visit cinnabar moth.com and several literary collections.com to check out the transcripts and we’ll also have the link to Katie’s social media. Thank you to all of our beautiful most listening. Thank you Katie for talking with me today. Thank you again for having me. And for now, bye bye.